- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.world
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If they can’t sell it, then they’ll lower prices and people will be able to buy them.
I doubt the profits are so hard to come up with considering the wild CEO pay and record profits everyone’s bragging about.
Yeah lol… Why curb supply to artificially keep prices high? Sounds like a antitrust issue.
We can keep producing mass amounts of EV’s; we’ll just store them all in caves in middle America.
It’ll be like government cheese all over again!
I’ll take some of that government EV. Maybe fill it with government cheese too while they’re at it.
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Just bought an EV from a local dealer. Went in on Saturday because they had a 2 month used listing on their website for about 10k under MSRP. They told me, oh no that sold, but please check out the new cars. I entertained them and told them they’d need to bring down the price 10k to get me to sign because it’s simply out of my price range. They also mentioned these things (ioniq 6) are selling extremely quickly and they only have a few on the lot.
They insisted and played games for a week, with offers OVER msrp, so I let them waste their time. They pushed me to come in, so as I was about to sign, I told them, actually, no. I need an offer 10k under MSRP or I’m leaving. At this point that was a 15k cut. They’ve now wasted a week of negotiation and suddenly found the used one I originally requested, but it was at their off-site lot.
We drove over there, and it was a large 5 story parking deckcompletely filled to the top. They even had cars parked in front of cars. They tried one last game and made me wait for 3 hours to get it out.
All that is to say, let the fuckers bleed. If they can’t afford Christmas, maybe they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means. If they can’t afford new years, it’s time to make a new resolution and if they can’t afford spring break, it’s time to find a new job.
That’s straight up bait-and-switch! Good on you to hold them to the original advertisement.
they need to learn what the fuck capitalism really means.
Eventually, they’ll move inventory to other dealerships (and the scrapheap), fire-sale the rest, cover their losses, and make room for new models. Dealers are amazing at colossal inventory stunts like this.
Straight up don’t give a single fuck what car dealers want. If they could all go out of business I’d be a happier person
Hi you pulled your car in, nothing is actually wrong with it but we looked at it from a distance and you need new air filters. That will be $375. I can make you a good price, I got it down to $373 because you’re a good money bag, I mean client.
Oh no! But won’t someone think about what the rent-seekers need? They worked hard for years to capture government regulation allowing them to be not only middle-men, but the only middle men allowed! How can they be expected to turn around and do what the government asks? This is a travesty!
With 30% markups? No, you cannot.
EVs require much less maintenance…dealers make much of their money from… maintenance! So they mark up the sale price to compensate for their lost revenue.
The solution is selling cars without dealerships, but our helpful state legislatures have made that illegal in many states.
And you need a safe place to charge it. Like a garage. I can’t afford a house so why would I buy a Nissan leaf (any cheap ev)? I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window. I also can’t just leave a wireless ground pad charger plugged in unattended outside. It’s all linked, nothing happens in a bubble.
I don’t know about other chargers but my Tesla charger is designed for outside use and can be configured to only allow my car to charge
The J1772 protocol is very basic and does not communicate any car identifier back to the charge unit, so it wouldn’t know what it’s plugged into (other than “something”)
And you just…trust other tenants to not just walk off with it?
I’m not worried about that, but I’ve seen some more cautious people get the cable underneath one of their wheels so that you’d have to move the car to take it. I’m quite sure you could also find another way of attaching or securing it to your car to make it fairly difficult to walk away with. The chargers also aren’t really worth much, so it seems unlikely that even someone desperate for cash would put much effort into it.
It helps to have your own home, and my area doesn’t have much vandalism
My charger is not detachable and is not especially valuable in itself, so I think of it more as vandalism than theft. Someone might vandalize my charger for the metal in the cable, I guess, but I also have an air conditioner compressor outside that I’d expect to be more valuable, if harder to walk away with. As a property owner, there’s always something that could be vandalized or stolen, but you need to balance your costs and convenience with what you expect from your neighbors
R u so paranoid that u think people are gonna steal it? I mean it might happen but I live in quite a rough place and I wouldnt even be worried abt that
Some people will steal anything they think they can sell for a couple bucks – particularly addicts. Some people just suck and will think the owner deserves to have it stolen for not securing it.
You’re banking on not a single one of those people seeing it and taking it. It’s not hard to sell it for cheap to someone who’ll list it on ebay.
I’ve had people attempt to Rob me in my own home, had bricks thrown in my window for literally no reason and had attepted night burglaries. Basically, I live in a rough area and I’d genuinely be suprised if someone stole an electric car charger. I’ve left much more valuable things outside by accident without them being stolen.
That’s a problem that is pretty easily solved. It can all be solidly affixed to the wall, locked to the vehicle, etc.
Yeah, I do wonder about the wisdom of locking it to the vehicle. I wonder if it would really deter anyone or if it just means my car is also vandalized for the scrap metal in the cable
I can’t just run an extention cord out an open window.
This is exactly what my neighbor does in his apartment.
But he has a driveway, so it’s not like he’s running it over the sidewalk or anything.
I smell a solution here: Dealers can offer free charging on their lot (plus optionally a mobile charging service that comes to you) for a monthly fee.
That way, you have a spot to charge in your city that’s never taken, and dealers can make the money they used to make on maintenance, therefore giving them the incentive to actually sell EVs.deleted by creator
With decent range, you can charge once or twice a week at a fast charger (while doing groceries or posting video games) or there are public chargers every couple of blocks. No need for a home charger (though it’s definitely more convenient).
there are public chargers every couple of blocks
You’ve never left the city, have you?
When you leave the city, you have your own driveway with your own charger
Your worldview is so narrow I don’t think you could thread a piece of fishing line through it.
Other wires come in and out of your house. It’s not hard to drill a hole and insulate it.
Why can’t you run an extension cord out an open window? Do u not have windows or something
What if they live on the third floor of an apartment or have to park a block away? It’s not one size fits all.
Ask someone who lives closer and pay the extra it’s what I’d do
Maybe roll out some models people can afford? It’s all SUVs that start around $45k, but they built only a few of those base models. The ones actually available are premium trims that go for $65k and might peak around $100k. They were able to sell out for 6 months, and then that market was saturated. Now they stand around asking why nobody buys their cars.
Also maybe don’t make me buy a car through a dealership. Why can’t I just order and car and it gets delivered to my house instead of making me pick it up from a dealer that gets to charge whatever they want for being a middle man on top of the cars already being too expensive.
Side note and probably hot take but I think if manufacturers were serious they would be rushing to phase out most of their combustion vehicles. If people want a new car it’s going to be electric and if they don’t want EV then they can find a nice used car and pay a premium for gas.
Laws have to change for direct sales of cars, mostly at the state level. Dealership owners also happen to be big donors to state elected officials.
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I’m not so sure about that. Interstate trade is the sole domain of the federal government technically. If you are in Tennessee buying from a manufacturer in Detroit, I would think that federal laws would override state laws. Realistically, I’m not so sure how that works okay out.
It’s been this way for decades without a serious challenge. Tesla has tried and largely failed to fight this (whatever else you might say about Tesla).
I think part of what Tesla failed at was opening direct buy dealerships in states, which becomes Intrastate commerce. They do allow you to direct buy, just not from the “showroom”.
Tesla… failed… at? Have you seen how profitable that company is now?
Tesla failed at (one thing) is not the same as Tesla failed completely.
I think context is important here. We were talking about how Tesla failed to open direct to consumer dealerships owned by Tesla because of state laws.
Most states with sales taxes include auto sales, so it’s also that they bring in a ton of government revenue.
Dealerships in the US are a cartel backed by the government. Multiple states have laws banning direct sales - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes
I would like an electric car next, but I live in an apartment where I couldn’t charge it.
Talk to your landlord about adding the infrastructure. It’s trivial for them to add 50 AMP rv-style outlets to one side of the lot, and you can then plug in your own mobile charger.
landlords of apartment buildings don’t like doing things like this or any other type of thing
Take a look at Aptera. Specifically for this use case.
Oh man I would love an affordable Honda e in North America. I’ve seen them in Europe. What a nice little car.
Move to Europe! And get free medicine as a bonus.
I live in Canada. I already have free healthcare. Though not as good as in Europe ngl.
As an American I wish I could
Well, maybe if the price of cars wasn’t so fucking high, they’d be able to sell more of them. But nope, corps gotta get those record profits in, while underpaying every single [non-executive] worker.
I don’t see any problem with removig car dealers. Just phase out of existence no one will miss them.
Civil liability. You cannot sue in state court without personal jurisdiction over the maker, you know, in case they make a car with a fuel tank that explodes everytime you tap the fender or something. However, if they have a physical business footprint in the state, it’s fair to sue them there.
It would be the end of auto recalls, and soon after the end of auto safety in general, because the makers would force their cases into whatever singular federal court that they pick and just whittle away the law of product liability one case at a time, sort of like how Republicans file all their challenges to federal immigration laws in Brownsville, Texas. Elon Musk would love that.
E: I see we’re just downvoting things we don’t understand this morning because we don’t like car dealers. That’s discouraging. I’m encouraged by a 2021 Supreme Court case, Ford Motor Co. v. Montana that seems to have returned some sanity to personal jurisdiction in product liability cases. Still, a physical presence in the forum state, even if it’s by an independent dealership (not a requirement in all states)–which stands in the shoes of the maker due to its equitable and contractual privity–is the lodestar of personal jurisdiction. Without strong long-arm jurisdiction, regular people are further doomed to the recklessness and wilfull disregard by which manufacturers will sell products in order to maximize profit.
Dealerships aren’t owned by car companies.
Can’t this be solved by updating requirements to allow vehicle sales?
Jurisdiction and service are part of due process, and come from the Constitution.
Yeah, there’s probably a way.
You’re saying that a customer can’t sue companies that don’t have a physical presence in their state, but because they sell their product though an unrelated third party I can sue them? I’m not a lawyer but that sounds like bullshit.
The real reason for the continued existence of car dealerships is lobbyist money. The NADA is very politically spendy to maintain their members’ legally required middleman status. And it’s bullshit. I can buy a laptop directly from Apple. I can buy a bicycle directly from Cannondale. I legally CANNOT buy a truck directly from Ford. I can configure it etc online but the order is then sent to a local dealership for processing and they can add whatever “fuck you because we can” fees they want.
Give me a solid car with an electric motor, but all old-school buttons and knobs in the cabin instead of a touchscreen that will be out of date in 5 years and cost 10k to replace if the kids get their grimy hands on it.
My ideal electric car is basically an 85 GTI with an electric motor, but they’re all SUVs
Yeah, I’m disappointed that the evs that are actually so simple are micro cars with an in-town-only top speed and they’re only available in Europe.
Closest thing in the US is a Nissan Leaf with a battery upgrade.
And let me rent an extra battery pack for long trips. I only need 40 miles day-to-day, but I gotta go 300 for Christmas.
PHEV is the answer! Give us options, doesn’t have to be one of the other; Chevy Volt had it for a bit, but it must not have been profitable because now I can’t find a PHEV that gets more than 30 miles on a full charge!
I don’t want to buy the oversized battery, and I don’t really want to buy the on-board generator/charger of PHEV. I only want to own as much vehicle, and incur the manufacturing carbon debt, to meet 95-98% of my needs. Make it easy to rent, borrow, or share the extra capacity for the last 2%, and the world will be a lot less wasteful. I can see renting a trailer with enough generator to replace a series hybrid. I can see renting surplus battery. And those rental services can be a revenue stream to replace dealerships lost service centers.
Clearly, though, I’m a minority of consumers, and no manufacturer actually wants to cater to me and my twelve friends.
Your use case is very reasonable, and a lot of people want it. But it’s a big challenge from a technical/engineering standpoint. You know how a replacement battery pack for an EV costs like $8k and has a range of 300 miles? Your rental battery would cost at least that much, plus whatever costs are involved to make it portable, and integrate it’s usage into your existing EV. Then the rental places would need to have massive charging capabilities for when people stop in to swap their empty rental battery for a full one, since it still only has a range of 300 miles (4-5 hours of freeway driving)
I actually think there will be improvements on the fast charging front. You can already see this idea in other places. Many heavy duty trucks have 2 fuel tanks. You can fill them with 2 standard pumps running simultaneously, effectively giving you double the refueling speed. Some phones have dual batteries for the same reason.
The honest answer for right now, which will likely cause an emotional response, is to just rent a different car for these rare needs. Or plan around chargers en route, which will likely be a frustrating experience.
The savings you’ll get day-to-day will more than cover your rental fees.
You’re right. I got my current (smallish) car with the explanation that I could just rent a truck when I want to haul hobby materials, but the practical inconvenience of that rental has meant that I just don’t, and consequently haven’t done any big hobby projects in years. When I imagine renting an EV booster battery, I imagine it being easy, convenient, and reasonably priced, unlike literally everything else in the automotive market.
And there is different emotional content in using your own vehicle vs any alternative.
You know there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data. It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online. That said, I saw there’s a company trying to offer electric retrofits for ICE vehicles, primarily classic cars, but that’s likely to be closest to what you want.
It’s wild to me that a car that is really quite a bit simpler than an ICE car is required to be perpetually online.
Well it would be wild if it was true. Car drives just fine without an internet connection.
there are absolutely zero controls on privacy for Tesla telemetry data
Another wild claim, what is it based on I wonder?
This made the rounds recently. Tesla is bad (just like all car companies), but not quite that bad. They do have stated controls.
I was expressing personal opinion, which is influenced by some known facts. Tesla employees shared videos recorded from cars on their company instant messaging system, which suggests lax controls (lawsuit too). They even passed around images of Elon Musk’s garage.
Elon Musk also personally canceled the Model X order of a buyer who criticized him. That level of pettiness suggests contempt for Tesla buyers and owners. Is the personal data for an active Tesla owner who criticizes him off-limits?
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/03/elon-musk-personally-cancels-rude-customers-tesla-order.html
Disgruntled ex employes say a lot of stuff. No proof though ;)
Also Elon bad, yeah no shit all people with that level of money are generally assholes. But a company should be able to chose who it does business with no?
Henry Ford designed the Model T to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person. Volkswagon designed the Beetle to be a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person.
The first car company to design an EV that’s a bare-bones vehicle affordable for the everyday person will sell lots of them. Profit per car may be lower but perhaps we need to set the need for maximum profits aside on this particular issue?
My raises aren’t even CLOSE to keeping up with inflation. Rather hard to splurge on a fancy EV with tons of high-tech nice-to-have features that are just going to break anyway. All I need to do is to get from point A to point B and have AC, heat and a half-decent stereo system.
He’d be rolling in his grave if he saw the clickwrap agreements they have to get in a modern car now. Can’t start the ignition without sharing your personal data with the car maker and 799 of its “partners.”
Henry Ford? I think he’d be more likely to be impressed and jealous. He made an affordable car because no one had thought of selling the ability to buy a car in addition to the car itself in his time.
Tangentially related, there’s a supermarket chain in my country that requires you to hand over your personal details to even apply for a job. The rough wording is something like: ‘all your personal information in perpitutity but only internally and with people we do business with.’ Except since selling my personal info would be a business transaction that clause includes potentially every human being on the planet.
Rolling in his grave in excitement you mean?
set maximum profits aside
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Out of curiosity, how much would it cost for you to consider an EV affordable for the everyday person?
The Chevy Bolt has been around for years and can be purchased new for less than $30k. Same with the Nissan Leaf. That’s a pretty attainable number for a lot of working adults, and that’s assuming you buy brand new. Multiple 2020 Bolts are available near me for around $20k. I’m seeing Bolts that might be another year or two older as low as $15k
I’d argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
I’d argue that price isn’t the thing keeping people away from EVs. You can buy a relatively inexpensive EV if you want to.
Not him and it may not be the only thing, but it’s a main thing.
30k is a lot for a new car, and most EVs I’ve seen start at 30k.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k. Financially savvy people know that the savings in gas will take years to recoup depending upon how often you drive the car.
Then there’s depreciation because a used EV with limited range is practically worthless, replacing a battery in one can run up to 15k, and Chevys in general don’t hold their value.
Now is price the only thing? No. I personally also am a little hesitant to buy one and the hidden costs of having to upgrade my electrical in the garage in order to effectively charge it, and I suspect others have similar concerns.
All that said my next vehicle will likely be an EV, and I really hope Honda gets its act together because if not I’ll end up having to go with someone else.
You can buy a used ICE car you can get years out of for less than 10k.
Ehhhh not anymore… this could just vary by location, but these days it’s not easy to find a used car like you describe for under 10k, unless it’s 15+ years old with 150k+ miles on it, then maybe you’ll find something in the $8-10k range. But that’s a roll of the dice. A car like that might only last you a year, if that.
The used car market in the US is completely fucked since COVID. And knowing how capitalism works, I imagine this is the “new normal” when it comes to used cars, and we all better start getting used to it.
I did some used car searches for people in the last month and there still seemed to be reasonably affordable options in that price range.
It may be subcompacts or similarly non-glamorous cars, but you can find low mileage, somewhat recently made cars for under 10k.
Right. And those cars were one third of that price in 2019.
A junker like that isn’t something you’d expect to last longer than maybe a few years, it shouldn’t cost $10k+.
Sure, but they’re still options for people who need a basic, functional car for a few years.
I’m not saying prices haven’t gone up, they have. But there are still affordable options and the service life of a semi-modern ice vehicle from a decent manufacturer is probably longer than it ever was.
Specifically, I saw options for cars around 10 years old, some newer, with less than 50k miles for around $7k.
Specifically, I saw options for cars around 10 years old, some newer, with less than 50k miles for around $7k.
I would love to know where, because that’s what I’m looking for. Around me, for that price, it would have at least 120k miles
I waited for Honda to come up with an electric or even a plug-in hybrid van, and gave up. Bought a Model Y.
I think what you’re saying is really important to the overall discussion. The initial cost is only one factor when considering cost of ownership.
You might be able to buy an EV for about the same price as a similarly equipped gas-powered car. But instead of oil changes and mechanical upkeep of the engine, now you have a whole new set of systems to maintain and repair. There aren’t a ton of repair shops out there yet for EVs. Even though there might be fewer mechanical problems overall with EVs, the cost and difficulty of getting a repair can be much higher.
Then there’s the battery issue. A gas car engine will remain mostly the same in terms of mpg and overall power output throughout the life of the vehicle. Sure, there will be deterioration, but it could be much worse with batteries. I’d be somewhat hesitant to buy a used EV because it can be difficult to know what state the batteries are in or how much longer they will last.
Not saying 30k isn’t alot of money, but the average price for a new vehicle is in the mid 45s. Cars are just expensive.
$15,000 is a cheap affordable price.
😡🤬 How dare you suggest we buy Chinese electric vehicles
Bullshit. These dealers don’t want to sell EVs because they can’t bait you into a sales pitch 4 times a year with free oil changes.
Car dealers are just a legal & institutionalized cartel.
Maybe it’s because cars suck now: filled with spyware, massively complex systems that aren’t better at doing car things than similar systems in the 90s, and with a price tag that considers this garbage as worth something to the consumer.
I sincerely wish that were the case. The proliferation of Ring doorbells, Alexa speakers, and overall lack of tech literacy really hampers any signs of general outcry. Our collective screech barely registers as a whimper in the grand scheme.
I mean that’s my disappointment with the new Tacoma that’s coming out soon. It’s great that they have a hybrid now, but it’s full of electronic crap now that used to be mostly isolated to certain components.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
I was legitimately going to buy a brand new one in the next year or two when I’m back in the US, and I’ve never bought a new car. now I guess I have to get a 2023 model or earlier. I bet any of the 2016-2023 generation lasts longer than the 2023-2030ish generation.
Honestly I don’t even like trucks but the biggest pull for me was that the Tacoma was still pretty old school for a new vehicle, and that it could go anywhere kinda rough.
Now the entire gauge cluster is a screen, it’s sad.
This is a really interesting take to me because I’m excited for all the physical displays to be replaced by screens. Because once they’re screens, the new CarPlay can take them over and give an actually good user experience compared the incredible dog shit quality in-car experience that the manufacturers provide.
I wanted to like the Tacoma but I owned a Corolla and it’s the same size inside. Not like in a “this is a truck” way either I mean the cabin is like a compact car. Seating position is just awful. I’m tall but this isn’t a tall thing even.
Thing about the Corolla is it had 41” legroom in front at least. More backseat room too.
There was another thread here on Lemmy where I talked about how my parents installed a wired intercom in our house so they wouldn’t have to yell at me when they wanted something and someone replied that they just use Alexa to do that and I wanted to hit my forehead on my keyboard.
The same thing happens in ICE vehicles. The issue here is that they marked them up an insane amount, refuse to learn about them, and actively discourage people from buying them.
Spoiler alert: cars have always sucked.
Inefficient drain of public and private money. Demand better public transportation.
If they can’t sell them then let companies sell without a dealership! Sorry your scammy business isn’t working anymore either clean your nose or get out
Fascinating, have they tried sucking less?
No.
When GM killed the Bolt, I tried to buy one at two different dealerships near me. One wanted a $10k premium over MSRP and the other wanted $8k.
They also both had a non-negotiable “security” etching added and wheel protection whatever that I had to pay for.
It isn’t that I didn’t want one, it’s that your dealerships fucked it up.
Honestly, may have settled for MSRP, but they wouldn’t budge. Fuck off.
There are tons of used bolts at the electric car dealership near me, I think they start around $15 or $16k.
