Some people, communicating via satellite phones, have described the attack as the “heaviest bombardment yet,” according to independent journalist Sharif Kouddous.
“People can’t call ambulances or civil defense. We are being bombed in an unprecedented manner,” said an unidentified journalist at a Gaza hospital, according to a translation by The Nation’s Palestinian correspondent, Mohammed El-Kurd. “The sky around us just lights up [with explosions], and no one knows what’s going on.”
The world is watching. No justice, no peace.
the world has never truly been at peace though - maybe prior to the evolution of bacteria, but I doubt it.
The natural world is chaotic and violent, so that means we as thinking humans who know what it is to suffer pain and the loss of loved ones, must not only add to that violence and chaos but also devise new, sophisticated ways of inflicting suffering. But also don’t forget that we’re better and more civilized than animals. /s
Until I experienced violence myself, I was unwilling to process the logic or think it through. Then I lived a portion of my life where I was in physical danger from very bad people, and I was forced to think it through.
Being prepared to retaliate is the most effective defense against those who are not sympathetic to your needs, whom you cannot avoid. It’s why animals demo their weapons when cornered. It’s why plants “waste” energy producing toxins that harm would-be eaters.
Every organism has weapons, and evolution’s been optimizing for over a billion years. Like, a little flap of skin no longer used is selected out over the course of a million years because it provides a disadvantage against those not wasting the energy to grow the little flap of skin. But nature spends energy putting claws on kittens. Why?
It’s logical; it’s just ugly and unpleasant to acknowledge. The only time people acknowledge it is when their circumstances change such that not acknowledging it is worse. ie when they are faced with the necessity of dealing with violence.
Yes, bombing children is simply the way the world works. Nothing we can do to stop genocide I guess. /s
Based on known human history, the last time Humans stopped a genocide… was when we ate the last Neanderthal.
Oh thank god it is so good to see someone who understands.
Cease-fire is the best we’ve got. MAD is why small animals have the instinct to fight bigger animals. It’s why pufferfish exist. Nature, unconsciously, groks deterrence and programs it into 100% of her evolved organisms.
That’s also why you can stand up to a bear and yell at it and the bear will run away, even though it could easily kill you… It doesn’t want to get in a fight.
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The world is watching justice happen right now.
This speaks to your warped sense of what justice really is, and I pity those around you for how that must affect them as you go through life bleeding your vindictiveness onto others.
The problem with those who are both shameless and arrogant is that they lack the self-awareness and empathy to put themselves in the shoes of others. May the universe show you the same level of mercy that you seem inclined to grant to others…
If a dog bit a person and that person went to the pound and just kicked all the dogs, is sort of what you’re cheering for
That dog bit and killed the person’s family. Fix that sentence.
Okay, and that changes what in this example…?
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So what? Stay silent and let the dogs come back to kill more?
What exactly is justice in context of a war? And do you realize that absolute justice for all sides means that the war will never end?
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Probably thinks justice only means retribution.
I honestly don’t care what assumptions you make about me.
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That’s good.
There can’t be „justice“ for things from the past. Everyone has to heal and make amends. You have to look into the future, so both sides learn to coexist.
Worked for France and Germany and Worked for the IRA and the UK. Conflicts that lasted centuries (France/Germany) and decades (IRA/UK) were able to get resolved.
So you also agree that Israel should immediately cease the siege of Gaza and look toward a diplomatic solution that aims to heal both parties loss. Perhaps a brokered peace and lasting agreement by a neutral 3rd party to finally solve all disputes? I think that’s a wonderful idea.
While Hamas ceases fire and releases all hostages unconditionally at the same time of course. sounds like a splendid idea.
I believe that’s on the table
Speaking at the United Nations, Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amirabdollahian said that Hamas is ready to release hostages on the condition that 6,000 Palestinians, who are currently in Israeli jails, are released as well.
“According to our negotiations, Hamas is ready to release civilian prisoners. On the other hand, the world should support the release of 6,000 Palestinians held in Israeli prisons,” he told a meeting of the 193-member General Assembly on the Middle East on Thursday.Probably not the preferred outcome, but it stops the killing now
That’s not an unconditional release of the hostages - so it’s very unlikely to happen.
You’re right, I guess this is just the genocide we had to have.
/s
If you dont want genocided don’t try and genocide your neighbor. Pretty simple concept really
What exactly is justice in context of a war?
Whoever wins.
The war will end when there are no sides left.
Which is… either when everyone decides to put their differences aside… or when the last man standing finally dies, all tales get forgotten, and all written records destroyed, so nobody can ever pick any of the sides again. They’ll likely pick a different set of sides again, but that will be a different war 🤷
It is errors in justice that make wars grow.
An excellent example of an error in justice is killing the people next to the people who attacked you. This conflict continues because there’s no clean line connecting an attacker to the retaliation back against that attacker.
Israel is no better than Russia.
Except that Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie. Russia and hamas are aggressors.
Ukraine attacking Russia was a lie, Israel ethnic cleansing Palestine is reality.
The sad news in reality is more people and more and more get killed every hour. I just can’t watch it anymore.
I just ate breakfast and watched the news. It is easy.
If you say so. Still it didn’t worth it to plan and perform that October 7th aggression. To think how much time and resources that required and how much stuff could be done instead to actually improve the lives of Palestinians, it’s sad and should be embarrassing.
Hamas obviously doesn’t give the slightest fuck about Palestinians’ wellbeing.
Right? If they cared they wouldn’t have attacked.
The median age of Palestinians is 18 which means more than half weren’t alive for the vote of Hamas. Now, Hamas has dismantled any democracy so they can’t even take a diplomatic route. And Israel keeps bombing them making sure they continue the system of oppression which in turn spawns more radicals.
Oh, look… more white supremacists blaming the colonized for their own genocidal colonization.
Israel are white ?
And that’s their main problem. You can’t be responsible government if you don’t care about your citizens. You can’t rely on the rest of the world to save your citizens while you continue aggression.
Well you could say that with the money Israel is burning for the terrorist action these days it could have found a way to keep its citizens alive… and still here we are.
These kind of arguments don’t really help do much progress, do they?
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The only result is that I lost you half way.
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You can’t imagine how much money were burned on iron dome alone. All to save lives and try to show terrorists they should do something else with their lives.
And yet…
Yeah… imagine if Jewish people spent their energy appeasing Nazis instead of doing the “Jewish Bolshevism” which forced those poor white supremacists to go on a genocidal rampage - tsk, tsk.
(/s - for the people on here that aren’t rabid white supremacists like the one I’m responding to)
Yeah, it gradually became a tankie instance :/
I mean they took .ml because it’s short for marxist-leninist. They’ve always been as bad as grad
Ahh, didn’t know that. Interesting tidbit of true, thanks.
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I mean… yeah if you count back to the time after Hamas’s creation.
why do you think Hamas exists at all lol?
It doesn’t matter as long as their are not doing what is better for them, or Palestinians. Spoiler: attacking Israel like they did on October 7th was not going to do any good.
Bullcrap. Israel has been invading Palestine since 1949.
Invading unprovoked?
There is such a thing as “provoked” white supremacist settler-colonialism?
I take it you think this “war” started when Hamas attacked them this year?
Israel has been occupying Palestine for decades.
Aggression. Aggression that showed Israel’s way of defense can no longer work and that terrorists won’t stop.
As for the occupation, there is no use in arguing because the bigger issue is logic. It was obvious from the start that this action would not have chances to bring any good end to the situation for Palestinians. No matter what real or fake reasons are, it was foolish. Attacking Israel because of occupation (with weapons like that) is like stabbing yourself with a knife because you have a flu.
Oh so only the Israelis are allowed to show aggression? The Palestinians just have to take it in silence?
Until they have a chance to actually change anything for good for themselves - yes. Palestinians couldn’t unsteal the lands so October 7th was useless. Israel will be able to prevent terrorists attack for a few years so the ground operation is not useless
Or, hamas could just surrender and release all hostages to immediately stop what’s happening right now.
That is deranged and inhuman.
Deranged an inhuman is to do terrorism, knowing that not only people are going to die, but your people are, too, going to die and suffer as a result. There is zero “protection” or “justice” in these actions and trying to justify them with anything like “but they are occupiers so it’s okay to attack them” is beyond foolish.
That’s interesting considering that Hamas is one of the closest allies of the Kremlin.
You know as well as anyone that this has NOTHING to do with Hamas.
Their strategy of indiscriminate bombing would not be the answer if they wanted to kill Hamas only. There’s absolutely no regard for civilians here. They’re not destroying Hamas. They’re eradicating the population of Palestine. Anyone who lives will rightly join Hamas and after this, honestly I can see why.
The Netanyahu government is currently doing an excellent job recruiting for Hamas.
Hamas as an organization will no longer exist. The Israeli government has been exceptionally and adamantly clear about that
Yeah, like taliban?
I wish the US could’ve penned the Taliban in the way Hamas is penned in.
Man what an absolute slam dunk no-downsides thing that would have been.
Does this mean you strongly support this action, since these groups are roughly equal?
US can’t win a war and neither can Israel.
Violence is never solved with more Violence.
Hamas is part of the problem. Arab countries have confirmed that Hamas is stockpiling food and water and medicine for themselves.
They don’t care about the Palestinians. If they did, those goods would be distributed.
Behavioral/policy similarity doesn’t necessarily imply an alliance or partnership compatibility.
Evil cunts are hypocrites?? What? Omg
They support Hamas to keep attention off the Ukrainian invasion.
Israel invade Palestine just as Russia do Ukraine…but somehow more inhumanely
Maybe take a look at the agreements between Russia and Israel about Sirya. Welcome to the real world btw.
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Ah yes because murdering millions of your own harmless citizens, who some served in your military is totally the same as fighting against a terror organization who massacred and pillaged your villages and keeps 200+ of your citizens captive.
I think what we’re learning from this is that ghettos are a step on the path to genocide. That’s the link to Germany here. You put a subset of “your” people into a walled off place, at some point in the future unless you take down that wall and re-integrate those people, you’re gonna massacre them.
Whether you think you’re capable of genocide or not, you are. We all are. And we need to be paying attention to the things that lead to it. And what this is demonstrating is that ghettos lead to genocide.
subset of “your” people
No Palestinian, or Gazan ever thought of themselves as Israeli, and neither did Israel think of them as their own. The situation of Gazans is terrible, but again - they’re not part of Israel, and are never intending to be. That’s so different from Nazi Germany that it’s just insane to compare the two.
Stop thinking of the Holocaust as a genocide. It’s so much more. It’s blatant racism, and a well tuned death machine. Something Israel both aren’t doing now, and didn’t do ever. Israel is only fighting for the good of its own people, and no one in the world can blame them, since every other single nation would’ve done the same. (Btw, same as Egypt who are doing what’s best for their people by not letting Gazans immigrate)
I think it’s the other way around. Israel put them in a gheto because they literally had no other way to protect their citizens. Now that the Palestinians have found a way around that, they’re back to killing the Israelis. And Israel is responding again.
That’s the same reasoning the Nazis used though. They said that Jews caused Germany to lose WW1, Jews caused the pain and suffering and instability of the German people. This was German land, not Jewish land, and so they had no choice but to lock up and exterminate the Jews for the safety and wellbeing of their own.
It was bullshit then and it’s bullshit now.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Reinhard
Nazis didn’t even “want” to exterminate the Jews… Gypsies yes, they shot those on sight, just like cripples… but all those Jews, Poles, Gays and similar, they “only” wanted to ship them all to Egypt or wherever in Africa… but those pesky Allies thwarted their plans, so “what were they supposed to do”. 🙄
And look, Egypt is again refusing to let the “undesirables” in, only this time it’s the Palestinians… and the ones pushing them out are the Israelis. 😒
Wonder what will the books end up calling this “operation”.
eh, they havent threatened to nuke anyone… cant really say that about Russia
If not worse
I hope when you realize what a batshit insane take this is, you feel bad enough to actually own it and grow as a person
Whatever helps you and your coscience sleep my dear.
They’re not wrong. That is a braindead comparison
Good argument. You were the first of you class I suppose.
Nope just not stupid enough to compare a religious war with a non religious war.
but you’re stupid enough that you can’t tell that religion is nothing more than masquerading power over the masses with the promise of a paradise.
Religion is just politics but in the name of a not existent god so the ones in power need no justification of their actions other than “it’s God’s will”.
That’s embarassing. I know 14yo who have a better understanding of the situation. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
One is a religious war and the other is not, that’s not an opinion, just a basic fact of reality. No idea how delusional you have to be to not comprehend that.
Living in reality does indeed help me sleep like a baby.
I’ve bookmarked the page. See you in January.
?!? Are you ok?
Yeah I’m having an awesome day.
Do you mean the bookmarking thing? Took 2 seconds. Didn’t even have to put down my coffee
Mate, what the hell are you talkiing about? What are bookmarking for January? Come back to this world for a second maybe?!
Israel is worse than Russia. Russia, in contrast, looks downright reasonable.
In a few weeks, Israel has killed almost as many civilians as those that have died on both sides over the course of almost two years of the Russia-Ukraine war.
.ca never fails to come up with the worst dogshit opinions.
Instead of being dismissive, why are they wrong?
I will continue to be dismissive
So… you can’t explain why they’re wrong then? That just makes you look like an idiot.
That is the conclusion you seem to have jumped to.
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Me too!
Everything any of these leftist fucks say is always wrong. It’s impossible to quantify it all in one post, but here’s the broad strokes.
- Hamas is a terror organization who steals from, tortures, and oppresses their own people. Hamas seeks to maximize civilian casualties however possible.
2: Israel is not committing (or even attempting) genocide. This one’s especially bad because you’d have to be pants-on-head stupid to believe it. It’s just pure, distilled, antisemitism.
3: Palestine isn’t a country, was never a country, and only Israel has ever been interested in making them a country.
4: Russia and Israel are operating at exact opposite purposes. Russia is trying to rekindle the Russian Empire. Israel is just trying to not suffer genocide against a foreign regime that literally calls for genocide of Jews worldwide. When I say literally, I mean they literally put out a call to action after their attack for Jews to be attacked worldwide, prior to any Israeli military response.
5: Israel is acting with severe restraint compared to what the US would do if a foreign nation invaded and murdered 45,000 people in their homes. Adjusted for population size, that’s what the comparable death toll would be in the US. We’d absolutely fucking level any country that did that. We fought WW2 over less. We fought Iraq and Iran over less than 10% of that
It’s hard to call out specifics when every single thing every one of these people say is wrong.
You haven’t read about the founding of modern Israel and the history of Zionism. Please do
(Before accusing me if being pro-terrorist, pro-Hamas whatever, know that I consider both entities unnecessarily violent and evil. But it is important to know why they are that way)
I am well aware of the history thanks.
zephyreks is a !worldnews@lemmy.ml mod who is banning people there for “orientalism” when they criticize the CCP (you can check their modlog), also it’s the same instance where admins haven’t banned a lead Lemmy dev when he repeatedly said that “all Israeli citizens are valid targets” and they merely deleted his comments way after they came under fire but until now they are still working with him. It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism, which is also why they usually share sketchy pro-Hamas sources. They’ll concern-troll about the victims in Gaza but in reality all that matters to them is that the US and one of its most important allies get hurt, because, you know, it helps advance their anti-capitalistic “cause”, and for the most antisemitic of them they’ll also rejoice at some Jewish deaths.
I mean, its not that hard to find both Isreal AND Hamas’s actions atrocious. What happened on the terrorist attack was horrifying and disgusting, and so is how Isreal is “Responding” (In quotes because while the severity has ramped up, this isnt exactly new behavior towards Gaza). I hate the Tankies here too, but thats not a Tankie only stance
It should be clear by now that most “we’re just pro-Palestinians, but look we also don’t like Hamas” people here on Lemmy are simply tankies cheering for terrorism and authoritarianism
I disagree here. There’s plenty of people genuinely horrified by the civilians killed by both sides.
My modlog hasn’t banned anyone lmao go bark up another tree
Numbers don’t lie.
Neither Ukraine nor Russia come even close to as bloodthirsty for civilian lives as Israel. Israel is killing civilians and killing Hamas fighters as collateral damage. Ukraine and Russia are killing each other’s soldiers and killing civilians as collateral damage. They’re not the same.
Numbers in fact do lie. Any knowledge of statistics 101 basic-ass shit sort of proves this
Tell me you don’t have a degree without telling me you don’t have a degree
5 days for a comeback that weak?
You should’ve left me crying after cooking up a little something for that long.
I mean, sounds like your most advanced exposure to statistics was “this is a joint probability”
Take a more advanced stats course. It’s really insightful and will open your mind.
They haven’t taken stats 101 yet
Numbers don’t lie.
He says, using Hamas fantasy numbers.
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Fun fact about the UN, is that the Arab League has massive voting power due to “one nation one vote.” That’s how UNRWA got so corrupted.
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Ukraine is way larger than Gaza, the EU has let millions of refugees in… and still Russia has leveled several Ukrainian cities to the ground, with soldiers shooting random civilians on the streets.
Right now, Russia is like Israel and Hamas put together, the only reason they’ve killed fewer civilians, is they couldn’t find more.
The casualty ratios are way off. Try again.
Try again what, explaining why the casualty ratios are way different? I wouldn’t want to repeat myself.
Russia is known to use spotters to confirm military targets before striking in civilian areas: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/29/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-russia-missile-attack-on-restaurant
That’s why Russia has disproportionately fewer civilian casualties relative to military ones.
Much as I loathe Putin, he has yet to do anything this savage.
Invading a sovereign nation, killing innocents, bombing schools, hospitals, residential areas, forcefully relocating people, land grabbing, spreading dehumanizing propaganda, threatening to use nukes…
It is exactly the same thing what both Hamas and Israel have been doing.
And using enslaved (oops sorry “conscripted”) soldiers to do it!
First paragraph yes, concluding sentence no
A poll published Friday found that only 49 percent of Israelis want to hold off on the ground offensive against Hamas, down from 65 percent last week.
Disappointing to say the least.
Entirely predictable though. Unlike previous rounds between Israel and Gaza, they haven’t been targeting the rocket infrastructure. Hamas and PIJ have been bombing Israeli cities daily since October 7th. It doesn’t get much coverage because most are intercepted and Israel intentionally censors most documentation of it - but you can find it in the liveblogs of most Israeli news sources.
The Hamas and IDF aligned telegram channels have both been remarkably consistent about cheering when about our munitions landing in their territory and decrying the reverse.
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but understandable - after all, there’s still quite a few hostages that the terrorists are holding. hopefully they’re being treated humanely and not, you know, tortured & etc but terrorists thrive on terrorism…
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One tragedy doesn’t justify the other tragedy, or make it less important. It’s not a competition.
One tragedy can’t justify another. But one is causing the other.
Generals gathered in their masses
Just like witches at black masses
Evil minds that plot destruction
Sorcerer of death’s constructionIn the fields, the bodies burning
As the war machine keeps turning
Death and hatred to mankind
Poisoning their brainwashed mindsPoliticians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeahTime will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgement day comes, yeah!Now in darkness, world stops turning
Ashes where their bodies burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hourDay of judgement, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing, spreads his wingsI don’t know why Satan is always the bad guy. If it exists I would be on his side over the opposition. Way I see it the theists are the ones doing these wars
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Ok ok fine in modern usage by those of us (including me) who do not have a masters in the humanities. Yes, I am aware of the connection between Lucifer and Prometheus. As well as his rebranding effort as a symbol of humanism.
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I guess the silver lining of this shitshow happening right as I joined Lemmy is that its giving me a massive list of hateful idiots and servers to block right out of the gate
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As anyone else. But as a species we don’t seem to get it that violence achieves nothing.
But is that actually true? A lot can be gained from killing your enemies and taking their stuff.
I’m not saying it’s right in any way, but the motivation should be as clear as any motivation ever has been.
sweet loot drops, for one.
You know if the leader of Hamas dropped 4x legendary skins, 2X xp multiplier and $30 worth of in game currency a teenager would have them dead by morning.
Achieved for whom? We’ve been following this advice since, well, forever. And yes, the elite might gain some material or political advantage from winning a war, but it’s a losing game for most.
When’s the last time a soldier forced his way into your home and told you to bring him food or he’d kill you?
I think the majority of us get it. There are a few who are making decisions that don’t understand.
They understand, it’s just that minimising violence is not their objective.
Reread the replies to my comment and tell me again that most of us get it. Most people are ok with violence as long as they benefit from it.
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Sure, and look how many rights the most violent places on Earth enjoy.
Big mouth for violence until you or your loved ones happen to be under the path of a bomb.
Because if you play the violence game, you will always find someone more ruthless and/or well equipped than you are.
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Oh, I’m sure America will topple, sooner or later. Who knows? In one or two Trumps, perhaps. Or maybe it will take 50 years, or a century or two, until civilization itself collapses because of unchecked climate change. History teaches us that all empires fail, and there’s no reason to believe that history will stop at the U.S. of A.
And obviously there’s no denying that violence has always been a driving factor in history. But saying that it doesn’t mean saying that it is desirable. Sure violence brought us here, but, unless you’re a psycho billionnaire, you will have to admit that this is far from a perfect world.
I’m not saying violence is completely avoidable (I stand with Ukrainians’ right to defend their country in any way) but maybe it could be that we can try applying it less and less.
Well there’s violence and there’s the capacity for violence. The most effective thing is the capacity for violence. The actual violence isn’t useful; except as a means to prove one’s capacity.
The best is to achieve that without having to actually hurt anyone.
Yeah, tell that to Gandhi
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Nope, they are not
Unless you consider voting full engage civilian violence
Rights are not won by voting.
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All of the civil rights in my country were slowly incorporated by democratic means through the last century.
Edit, this includes paid vacations, paid maternity leaves for both mother and father, female vote, abolishing slavery, public health, free secular public education (12 years obligatory + university), unemployment insurance, universal income*, abortion
Edit2: that doesn’t mean that all rights are won without violence and my country had a lot of violence, but it was about who was holding the power. Rights were voted through the decades almost independently of who was in power.
Night bombings are always known to be the most accurate.
Yeah - we should be glad that weapons technology actually evolved to a point, where carpet fire bombings of cities like Dresden or Hamburg (WW2) are a thing of the past.
Don’t forget Tokyo! Those we’re all war crimes interestingly enough.
Oddly the siege of Gaza may very well fall into that category with the amount of ordinance that’s been dropped, although the terminology would likely be different due to the guided aspect.
Carpet bombing of cities, towns, villages, or other areas containing a concentration of civilians is considered a war crime[5] as of Article 51 of the 1977 Protocol I of the Geneva Conventions.[6][7][8]
The term obliteration bombing is sometimes used to describe especially intensified bombing with the intention of destroying a city or a large part of the city. The term area bombing refers to indiscriminate bombing of an area and also encompasses cases of carpet bombing, including obliteration bombing.Perhaps it might even get it’s own unique term someday. I do find it quite similar from what I’m reading on the first instance of carpet bombing though, the bombing of Barcelona
Along with the variance of the times between each individual attack, this had a demoralizing effect on the civilian population, which suffered prolonged anxiety quite out of proportion to the number of bombs dropped over a long period of time. Coupled with the fact that there was little discernible military value in the choice of targets within the city, and the cessation of the attacks for no apparent reason
Edit: sorry meant to add this as well
The Italian bombers dropped 44 tons of bombs.[7] Rather than aiming at military targets, the Italians intended to destroy industrial areas of the city and demoralize the Republican side, in what some authors have described as the first aerial carpet bombing in history.[1] Their targets and declared objectives were military warehouses, arms factories, trains with soldiers, and the port, but civil buildings, cinemas, consulates, and theatres were also hit or destroyed during the bombing.[8]
It’s probably worth pointing out that the Geneva Convention article you’re quoting was written a couple decades after both Tokyo and Barcelona events.
I guess take it up with the Wikipedia editors if you don’t like it?
I’m not saying it’s not a war crime according to the definition. I was just pointing out that the specific crimes precede the definition by a couple of decades.
Things have gotten so out of hand. It is a shame.
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