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Let’s make this clear: Spanish population only grows because of immigration. We have one of the lowest birth rates in the world (see https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/birth-rate-by-country), but allowing immigration has somewhat contained our population decline. Without immigration, our pension and health systems would be unsustainable, unable to cater an aging population. So we have immigration to thank for what you see in that image. Countries with low birth rates and low immigration (like Japan) are actually doomed.
I guess this is true for a lot of countries on this map where population numbers have increased in the higher two digits. At least it’s also true for Switzerland and yet one of the most popular political parties is actively promoting laws to limit further immigration. Not that this is surprising in the current political environment in Europe where it seems we are seeing a right shift in a lot of governments nowadays.
Yes, I imagine that is the case for other countries, but I just talked about Spain because that’s where I live, and I know the reality here. Immigration is a completely positive event. We should be really thankful for those immigration waves we had in the past.
That seems to suggest that relying on immigration to support a population is not a sustainable system.
Where did you get that from? I’m thanking immigration for helping our population growth. Can you please elaborate where you get that idea from?
What happens if all countries were doing well enough for immigration to slow down? Like not having constant wars and dictatorships?
What happens if your country becomes less appealing to immigrants, or gets a short surge of anti immigration leadership like the US?
If an increase in population is necessary to support retirement and your own population can’t sustain that, then you are propping up a system that requires other countries to be worse off. That cannot continue indefinitely.
But I’m not proposing in any way immigration as a path to solve the problem of aging population. That interpretation is solely on you.
I’m only saying that immigration it’s just a phenomenon that happened (and it’s not happening at the same rate as in the past anymore), and that I’m glad it happened, because if not, we would be in real trouble really soon. I’m just thankful for the immigrants to this country, because it’s them saving our asses (in contrast to people thinking they’re a problem).
The causes of our aging population are other, and the real solution requires actions that I wish politicians tried to solve. Immigration was just a temporary fix, that we should be thankful for, but it’s not the solution to the problem at all, nor am I proposing it as the solution.
I think you read too much in my post.
I think you are assuming that my comment was trying to invalidate yours instead of expanding on it with my own observation.
You started your comment with “That seems to suggest…” Well, no, I’m not suggesting anything more than what I said. Just that. And I don’t feel the need to explain anything further. Cheers.
I didn’t say that you suggested anything or that you need to explain anything.
Have you had a discussion where people expanded on and added to other people’s comments before or is this a new experience?
It will continue in the foreseeable future though.
World utopia isn’t coming anytime soon, and until then, the EU is better than most of the world under whatever metrics you want to use.
It also means there is a disincentive to help bring up the rest of the world because that would reduce the rate of immigration.
Most of the world is an unfixable cesspit of corruption, authoritarianism, and misery. It’s not possible to bring corrupt dictatorships to EU living standards because the power structures in those countries will hijack any effort to do so, using the funds to further concentrate wealth and power.
The only way that someone in such countries can hope to improve their life is through immigration.
The unsustainable part is having a pension and health system which relies on constant growth.
what happened in turkey? how did they increase so heavily? didn’t large amounts of their population move to central europe in that same timeframe?
Larger amounts of Syria fled to Turkey.
Since 2006 it is about migration to and from Germany is about equal. A lot of Turks moved back to Turkey as the economy grew and well with a German pension Turkey is a great place to live, especially when you speak the langauge and have family there.
Other then that the Turkey has natural population growth and Syrians and other migrants moving to Turkey.
Turkey has brain drain. The educated people are moving away. Those are usually the ones with smaller families.
Ireland is interesting here. I don’t believe they have as many people immigrating to them as other countries, which indicates this is mostly people not leaving as was widespread until the 00’s.
Ukraine pre or post invasion? So what point of 2022?
Woah. Luxembourg is BLOWIN’ UP!
You mean people don’t want to live in wartorn and just plain shitty countries and flee to more progressive and human right focused countries. Weird. And now those shitty countries just get shittier because those that could leave did and they are usually the healthy/smart people.
Your theory has a Turkey-sized hole
They are just passing through, let’s see the numbers for 2023.
No, they got effectively halted during the time of the immigration deal between Turkey and the EU. Now, that the deal failed, it remains to be seen, if refugees continue to Europe or stay where they are.
Norway had a birth number of 1.41 in 2022. We are absolutely dependent on immigration to uphold our society.
We have our flaws as well, but we’re not a shitty country
I love how russia has just a penis on it. Rofl
They’re about to lose so hard you guys, Slava Ukraini 🙋 fuck putler amirite
Heroiam slava 🙋♂️
How’s it going now? Fight til the last ukrainian yet? 🤣
Are you alright mate? The post is more than week old :D
Colors are off. Green is less people red more.
Green is less people red more.
?
We don’t need more people, we need less.
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We can’t just skin everyone, man.
Why? Many European countries struggle with not having enough people.
No Wtf
Lad, we’re not making enough kids. Society is not sustainable with an aging population and less people to work. We are absolutely dependent on immigration.
No. We need less people. In general, there is no shortage of workers, there is just inefficiency, bad working conditions and bad pay.
The fairytale of “worker shortage” was made up by employers that want to get away with paying nothing for work and treating their workers like shit.
If you want to shrink a population, you have to do it slowly while adapting the system to it. In a few years, with the boomer generation slowly retiring, Europe would be fucked without immigration. Too many retired people with not enough young people to care for them and uphold the economy at the same time. You can’t fix the resulting hole in manpower by only increasing efficiency. In Germany we are talking about a lack of 400k people per year.
It’s not that we have too many people, it’s that we have an inefficient system based on exploiting those people and not providing for them.
We could probably sustain several times the current population… just not with the current methods we use.
