I agree, Francis was less terrible than most, including his immediate predecessor. But I watched as the CDF still suppressed the LCWR and he didn’t do a goddamn thing. He was as complicit as the US Congress is with Trump.
See, I think they’re more Christian than you. The rosary is simply a reminder to pray quietly and not show off their religion. Something you seem to have missed. And what about not judging?
It’s all moot. Y’all are arguing over different flavors of a fanfic. Real Jesus was nothing like the book.
The rosary is simply a reminder to pray quietly and not show off their religion
Nope, the Bible doesn’t say anything about beads. Prayer is meant to be simple. The rosary is adding to God’s word.
Revalation 22:18 “ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”
I’ll ask you again: yes or no, do you believe a church (the Catholic Church) which allows and enables its preachers all throughout its history to molest children is a church of Christ?
The guy you linked seems insane to me, no offense.
Also wafer not being the body of Christ? Isn’t that during the Last Supper that Jesus says that this is my body? The wafers are just an analogue to that.
Why is he worrying so much about honorifics like “Father” as well? This is just a bizarre wall of text.
Ruben Israel was insane (he was an Arminian). But I at least agree with him on his list of Catholic errors
Matthew 23:9 says: “ And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” Basically, it is directly against the word of God to call a priest that word.
Who gives a toss about specific quotes like that? They’re mistranslated copy of telephone game word of mouth of stuff random people came up with hundreds of years after Jesus died. And that quote could just be saying don’t call you dad ‘father’ - which is just stupid.
Catholics are Christian, at least according to those of us who are not Christian.
It’s like the LGBT+ community: someone is how they personally identify. Even if their behavior doesn’t meet expectations. (Russell T. Davies did a series about this phenomenon, Bob & Rose) If a man claims to be lesbian, than he is. And yes, this pisses off the gold-star lesbians.
Anyone who identifies as Christian, is Christian. Full stop.
They might not be very good at it.
They might disagree with what qualities a Christian should have.
They might, themselves, decide you’re not a Christian either.
If they belong to a mainline or fundamentalist ministry, they probably think your faith is a deception by the devil, and only by joining their church will you receive salvation. That is more common ministerial position than not.
If they’re Universalist, then they don’t care if you’re Christian, you get salvation anyway.
Let me ask you one simple question: do you believe that a church which throughout its history has enabled its preachers to molest children, can truly be called Christian?
The Bible says that true Christian’s are followers of Christ, not just those who claim to be, then do the opposite behind closed doors. Catholics are Christian in name only.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall release on earth shall be released, even in heaven.”
Without question. Corruption and abuse within institutions is epidemic throughout human history. Child sexual abuse runs lousy in religious institutions. The youth-pastor problem is pervasive.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
A more realistic ambition (if your congregation is more than a dozen folk) is for absolute transparency. A bigger problem in the religious sector is the incentive by ministries to cover up scandals, and silence victims in order to preserve the reputation of the institution. (And predators looking for a hunting ground often seek positions of authority in religious institutions because of this trait.) If your church had the policy of reporting wrongdoing to the authorities and to the press, quickly and openly, then, yes, your ministry will have a lower rate of misconduct, but it will appear to be more corrupt, because of your sunshine rules. Kinda like Florida.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well. Unchecked power breeds abuse of it, and scandals run thick in temples, in mosques, in secular community centers. The larger the institution the worse the entrenchment.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well
Absolutely, and that’s all evidence that the church of Christ is not with them people either. You must understand: the true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers. Try as you may, you simply won’t get that conduct wrapped up in anything even remotely Christ-like.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest
It’s not quite the oldest, but it is old I agree. But the bigger point about your statement there is, they are big — they have over a billion members. What did Christ say about the number of people who would be saved?
Luke 11:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Also Romans 9:27: “ 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved”
The Bible explicitly says a tiny number of people shall be saved, yet the Catholic Church has over a billion. That is not consistent with what the scripture says (and don’t forget: 8 people survived Noah’s Ark, out of millions or possibly billions) that’s all the more evidence that the Catholic Church is not the church of Christ (combined with their history of murder, rape, corruption, greed, lies and other sins). And if they’re not of Christ, they are not true Christians (christian in name only). I’m not having a go at what you posted, I’m just elaborating that that’s just my view.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
Only God creates his church really. Plus, it wouldn’t matter: both Luther and Erasmus agreed that the Catholic Church was corrupt, but they couldn’t agree on how to fix the issue (they couldn’t agree with certain aspects of theology either, but that’s a whole other debate).
On a side note, I forgot to ask: you said you’re not Christian, may I ask are you atheist or do you just follow another religion? (E.g. Judaism, Hinduism, etc.)?
Saying that the Catholic Church fell into grave error suddenly is saying that Christ failed to protect his Church, which is saying that Christ failed, which is impossible
Matthew 16:18 And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
The true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers.
If that were the case then there is no true Church of Jesus Christ. Full Stop. Your definition excludes allowance for human nature, and the corrupting influence of authority.
Anyway, all your bible passages are meaningless. The white Christian nationalist movement serves as an example of what Dan McClellan observes, that the bible is only used for the prooftext to uphold social hierarchy. The amount of care we see for the sick, support for the impoverished, and regard for the stranger in modern ministries is nauseatingly slight, even though they’re central themes in the bible.
It not only highlights that the texts are a historical work, not inerrant, not univocal, and not divinely inspired. But that they can be reinterpreted to say anything to any purpose. And they are.
And if we presume the omniscience of God, then They knew in advance the scripture-church model of messaging would fail, and would choose something different that worked.
They’re only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist. I’m not wasting my time with atheists, they’re sadly more often than not a lost cause, and certainly put no value in scripture
[Scripture is] only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist.
You should know better. Fundamentalist faiths like to veer away from the beatitudes, and from anything that challenges the hoarding of wealth and power. Post-enlightenment Christians like to avoid the large sections that discuss and openly endorse human slavery, or massacres of villages to the last child and livestock. For most Christians there are large segments of the bible that they disregard entirely, because it doesn’t fit into their own understanding of social norms. There’s a Buddhist saying, Everyone is a biblical scholar when it comes to passages they don’t like.
And then there are atheists who were Christians and deconstructed. Biblical passages have quite a lot of meaning to them. There are a lot of deconstructed Christians who create content on social media. And they talk about the bible and what it means to them.
My own path was more meandering, and my own ethics were gained by deliberation and reading what moral philosophers have figured out. In my experience, societal values are not revealed, they’re constructed.
Atheists aren’t antagonistic to you. At least this one is not. I anticipate you will get exactly the same salvation, the same redemption, the same afterlife as I will. I see that you live in the same cinematic universe as I do and are subject to the same physical laws. I see that there is no justice, no kindness except for that which we collectively decide to create for ourselves. Ultimately, we all go to the same grave. And I anticipate neither of us will be disappointed.
It’s your rival ministries that believe their congregation is blessed by fiat, and yours is profane, also by fiat. It is they who believe good and evil are binary, the paint on chess pieces. That once they determine someone is in league with the Devil, they are free to do anything they want to them. And they do. So, yeah, I am concerned this is the model that reflects your beliefs as well. I hope not.
The old and new testaments are meaningful to me the same way the Koran is meaningful to you. And Christian faith is no more or less valid than Muslim faith, or Shinto faith, or Hindu faith. I believe only in what I see, what I understand to be true. What is consistent with my experiences. And yes, it means having to confront that I am not special or chosen. Nor are any of us. In the zombie apocalypse, we’re all just zombies.
Though, if you have to be Christian, perhaps you should consider being Universalist. They, at least, are optimistic about the nature of humanity.
Not. This. One. Man… he even try fixing some of that bullshit.
Pope Francis compares child sex abuse to human sacrifice
I’m not even
ChristianCatholic, but seriously. Fuck this meme.If we don’t look at all the terrible things done in history, we’ll never figure out how to not repeat them.
Looking at the history honestly would mean using a picture of a more appropriate Pope.
I agree, Francis was less terrible than most, including his immediate predecessor. But I watched as the CDF still suppressed the LCWR and he didn’t do a goddamn thing. He was as complicit as the US Congress is with Trump.
deleted by creator
Neither are these men’s followers. Catholic ≠ Christian
I think its the other way around. All catholics are chrisitians. Not all christians are catholic.
Catholics do too much unbiblical for me to accept that they’re Christian
Matthew 16:18 And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
Oh yes, yes. It’s your specific interpretation of the highly mistranslated book that is the deciding factor.
Shit, I rolled my eyes too hard and I think I hurt something. I’m sending you the doctor bill.
Well I’m not saying a rosary for you (where tf is the rosary in the Bible???) also, it’s not purely my ‘interpretation’ (how do you interpret something that isn’t even in the bible?) many others have said so too, see this: https://sites.google.com/view/officialstreetpreachers/edification/catholics
Sola Scriptura is flawed.
Luke 1:28
Luke 1:42
See, I think they’re more Christian than you. The rosary is simply a reminder to pray quietly and not show off their religion. Something you seem to have missed. And what about not judging?
It’s all moot. Y’all are arguing over different flavors of a fanfic. Real Jesus was nothing like the book.
Nope, the Bible doesn’t say anything about beads. Prayer is meant to be simple. The rosary is adding to God’s word.
Revalation 22:18 “ For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”
The Bible also says nothing about typing. So why are you still here?
I’ll ask you again: yes or no, do you believe a church (the Catholic Church) which allows and enables its preachers all throughout its history to molest children is a church of Christ?
Yes. Because God impregnated a child to birth your savior. Let alone the power differential. Consent was literally impossible.
And what’s good enough for the goose is good enough for the gander. Or gosling, in this case.
The guy you linked seems insane to me, no offense.
Also wafer not being the body of Christ? Isn’t that during the Last Supper that Jesus says that this is my body? The wafers are just an analogue to that.
Why is he worrying so much about honorifics like “Father” as well? This is just a bizarre wall of text.
Ruben Israel was insane (he was an Arminian). But I at least agree with him on his list of Catholic errors
Matthew 23:9 says: “ And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven” Basically, it is directly against the word of God to call a priest that word.
But yeah, I agree with him on that list, not on his other Arminian ways. A comedian made a rather funny documentary on him it’s worth a watch if only for shits and giggles
Who gives a toss about specific quotes like that? They’re mistranslated copy of telephone game word of mouth of stuff random people came up with hundreds of years after Jesus died. And that quote could just be saying don’t call you dad ‘father’ - which is just stupid.
Hey, my dad is not a true Scotsman too
Hahahaha thats true for every type of Christians my dude
True. Makes you wonder who actually follows it.
Tell this to hardcore catholics on the countryside and they will bring back human sacrifice only for you
Beautiful! They’ll just be proving my point!
Catholics are Christian, at least according to those of us who are not Christian.
It’s like the LGBT+ community: someone is how they personally identify. Even if their behavior doesn’t meet expectations. (Russell T. Davies did a series about this phenomenon, Bob & Rose) If a man claims to be lesbian, than he is. And yes, this pisses off the gold-star lesbians.
Anyone who identifies as Christian, is Christian. Full stop.
They might not be very good at it.
They might disagree with what qualities a Christian should have.
They might, themselves, decide you’re not a Christian either.
If they belong to a mainline or fundamentalist ministry, they probably think your faith is a deception by the devil, and only by joining their church will you receive salvation. That is more common ministerial position than not.
If they’re Universalist, then they don’t care if you’re Christian, you get salvation anyway.
I do understand your point, I just don’t agree.
Let me ask you one simple question: do you believe that a church which throughout its history has enabled its preachers to molest children, can truly be called Christian?
The Bible says that true Christian’s are followers of Christ, not just those who claim to be, then do the opposite behind closed doors. Catholics are Christian in name only.
Matthew 16:19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall release on earth shall be released, even in heaven.”
Without question. Corruption and abuse within institutions is epidemic throughout human history. Child sexual abuse runs lousy in religious institutions. The youth-pastor problem is pervasive.
If you want to create a church, and figure out how to keep its elders free of vice and corruption, I applaud you. But I don’t think you’re going to succeed, if ever your ministry gains any significant following.
A more realistic ambition (if your congregation is more than a dozen folk) is for absolute transparency. A bigger problem in the religious sector is the incentive by ministries to cover up scandals, and silence victims in order to preserve the reputation of the institution. (And predators looking for a hunting ground often seek positions of authority in religious institutions because of this trait.) If your church had the policy of reporting wrongdoing to the authorities and to the press, quickly and openly, then, yes, your ministry will have a lower rate of misconduct, but it will appear to be more corrupt, because of your sunshine rules. Kinda like Florida.
The primary reason the Catholic church is so ridden with corruption and scandal is because it’s big and it’s old. It’s the largest Christian denomination, and it’s been around the longest.
Don’t think this doesn’t happen to non-Christian religious institutions as well. Unchecked power breeds abuse of it, and scandals run thick in temples, in mosques, in secular community centers. The larger the institution the worse the entrenchment.
Absolutely, and that’s all evidence that the church of Christ is not with them people either. You must understand: the true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers. Try as you may, you simply won’t get that conduct wrapped up in anything even remotely Christ-like.
It’s not quite the oldest, but it is old I agree. But the bigger point about your statement there is, they are big — they have over a billion members. What did Christ say about the number of people who would be saved?
Luke 11:
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Also Romans 9:27: “ 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved”
The Bible explicitly says a tiny number of people shall be saved, yet the Catholic Church has over a billion. That is not consistent with what the scripture says (and don’t forget: 8 people survived Noah’s Ark, out of millions or possibly billions) that’s all the more evidence that the Catholic Church is not the church of Christ (combined with their history of murder, rape, corruption, greed, lies and other sins). And if they’re not of Christ, they are not true Christians (christian in name only). I’m not having a go at what you posted, I’m just elaborating that that’s just my view.
Only God creates his church really. Plus, it wouldn’t matter: both Luther and Erasmus agreed that the Catholic Church was corrupt, but they couldn’t agree on how to fix the issue (they couldn’t agree with certain aspects of theology either, but that’s a whole other debate).
On a side note, I forgot to ask: you said you’re not Christian, may I ask are you atheist or do you just follow another religion? (E.g. Judaism, Hinduism, etc.)?
Saying that the Catholic Church fell into grave error suddenly is saying that Christ failed to protect his Church, which is saying that Christ failed, which is impossible
Matthew 16:18 And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
The true church of Jesus Christ does not have molesting preachers.
If that were the case then there is no true Church of Jesus Christ. Full Stop. Your definition excludes allowance for human nature, and the corrupting influence of authority.
Anyway, all your bible passages are meaningless. The white Christian nationalist movement serves as an example of what Dan McClellan observes, that the bible is only used for the prooftext to uphold social hierarchy. The amount of care we see for the sick, support for the impoverished, and regard for the stranger in modern ministries is nauseatingly slight, even though they’re central themes in the bible.
It not only highlights that the texts are a historical work, not inerrant, not univocal, and not divinely inspired. But that they can be reinterpreted to say anything to any purpose. And they are.
And if we presume the omniscience of God, then They knew in advance the scripture-church model of messaging would fail, and would choose something different that worked.
They’re only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist. I’m not wasting my time with atheists, they’re sadly more often than not a lost cause, and certainly put no value in scripture
[Scripture is] only ‘meaningless’ to you personally because you’re clearly an atheist.
You should know better. Fundamentalist faiths like to veer away from the beatitudes, and from anything that challenges the hoarding of wealth and power. Post-enlightenment Christians like to avoid the large sections that discuss and openly endorse human slavery, or massacres of villages to the last child and livestock. For most Christians there are large segments of the bible that they disregard entirely, because it doesn’t fit into their own understanding of social norms. There’s a Buddhist saying, Everyone is a biblical scholar when it comes to passages they don’t like.
And then there are atheists who were Christians and deconstructed. Biblical passages have quite a lot of meaning to them. There are a lot of deconstructed Christians who create content on social media. And they talk about the bible and what it means to them.
My own path was more meandering, and my own ethics were gained by deliberation and reading what moral philosophers have figured out. In my experience, societal values are not revealed, they’re constructed.
Atheists aren’t antagonistic to you. At least this one is not. I anticipate you will get exactly the same salvation, the same redemption, the same afterlife as I will. I see that you live in the same cinematic universe as I do and are subject to the same physical laws. I see that there is no justice, no kindness except for that which we collectively decide to create for ourselves. Ultimately, we all go to the same grave. And I anticipate neither of us will be disappointed.
It’s your rival ministries that believe their congregation is blessed by fiat, and yours is profane, also by fiat. It is they who believe good and evil are binary, the paint on chess pieces. That once they determine someone is in league with the Devil, they are free to do anything they want to them. And they do. So, yeah, I am concerned this is the model that reflects your beliefs as well. I hope not.
The old and new testaments are meaningful to me the same way the Koran is meaningful to you. And Christian faith is no more or less valid than Muslim faith, or Shinto faith, or Hindu faith. I believe only in what I see, what I understand to be true. What is consistent with my experiences. And yes, it means having to confront that I am not special or chosen. Nor are any of us. In the zombie apocalypse, we’re all just zombies.
Though, if you have to be Christian, perhaps you should consider being Universalist. They, at least, are optimistic about the nature of humanity.
Ok ok