If a crazy guy attacks you on the street, would you just stand there and let him kill you because of all those societal consequences that are working against him?
No, because I’m not a pacifist. But what I’m saying is that this “with us or against us” argument is reductive and wrong. The question of whether pacifism is correct is a separate question from whether the “with us or against us” reasoning is valid.
If someone asks you to fight back to save yourself and your neighbors…no…they aren’t the ones doing you harm.
I think you and I have very different understandings of what the term “forcibly conscript” involves. It’s not “asking.”
Not only that, but there are an enormous amount of assumptions that you’re making here. Not every conflict is between fascists and non-fascists, as I said, WWII is an exception and you can’t make a rule from that exception.
Provided that neither side is exterminationist in nature, the conflict may just be a question of which oppressor rules over you, and in that case, you are not fighting, “to save yourself or your neighbors” but to preserve the power of one oppressor over another.
WWI provides a very clear example of this, and historically, the pacifists had the second best take on that conflict, better that virtually anyone else in the West. Likewise in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran. Every one of those conflicts was framed as being “defensive” and “if we don’t fight them over there, we’ll be fighting them over here,” again, pacifists were much more correct than anyone who participated in those conflicts.
No, because I’m not a pacifist. But what I’m saying is that this “with us or against us” argument is reductive and wrong. The question of whether pacifism is correct is a separate question from whether the “with us or against us” reasoning is valid.
I think you and I have very different understandings of what the term “forcibly conscript” involves. It’s not “asking.”
Not only that, but there are an enormous amount of assumptions that you’re making here. Not every conflict is between fascists and non-fascists, as I said, WWII is an exception and you can’t make a rule from that exception.
Provided that neither side is exterminationist in nature, the conflict may just be a question of which oppressor rules over you, and in that case, you are not fighting, “to save yourself or your neighbors” but to preserve the power of one oppressor over another.
WWI provides a very clear example of this, and historically, the pacifists had the second best take on that conflict, better that virtually anyone else in the West. Likewise in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Iran. Every one of those conflicts was framed as being “defensive” and “if we don’t fight them over there, we’ll be fighting them over here,” again, pacifists were much more correct than anyone who participated in those conflicts.