I’ve seen several references to some sort of rift between the users of these instances today. What’s happening?
Locking this thread. Too much pointless fighting happening and reports going out.
The stereotype is that Lemmy.ml wants to play with Stalin’s balls. Lemmy.world wants to play with, I don’t know, Obama’s balls? With Bernie, Bill Clinton, and Reagan watching from the corner?
Something like that, anyway.
HEY ML WHAT POLITICIAN WOULD YOU DESCRIBE US AS SUPPORTING IN VAGUELY HOMOPHOBIC TERMS?
ML: …
Obviously this is my opinion based off observations I’ve made, and not every user or sub in each instance falls under this generalization.
Both instances have a lot of users, and they have ideological differences, so they inevitably butt heads. Depending on who you ask, ML mainly has socialists, communists, or tankies. World seems to be more centrist leaning to the left, but it seems to be accepting of a more varied range of political opinions. Considering a lot of Lemmy users came from Reddit, I think a comparison can be drawn. My opinion is that World users have an ideology similar to most of Reddit and seem more likely to have left Reddit because they took issue with specific Reddit admin policies. On the other hand, ML users would have had an ideology that was more fringe for Reddit, and while they may have had issues with Reddit admins as well, they seem more likely to have left Reddit because their views were not well accepted among Reddit’s general population.
Too add I think .ML and especially hexbear are the fringe like chapotraphouse was on reddit. Which I discovered through the dollop podcast and while I love that podcast chapotraphouse was a different beast
anticommunism, basically.
Long-standing political differences and an extremely censorious moderation philosophy on Lemmy.ml means there is always tension. I’m not aware of any specific thing that has happened recently though.
I’m not sure if there’s anything new, just seems to be the standard liberal/leftist beef.
Is that really how you view this? I don’t want to start a big argument but I don’t find that summary accurate at all.
Yes, generally. I can be more specific and say “western progressive/Marxist” beef, ie beef between western progressives and Marxists, but that beef is also just generally the liberal/leftist beef.
I’m not really looking for a fight, either, nor an argument. I generally value productive dialogue, but often that gets shut down by people that don’t want that, so it spirals into arguments. See this “exchange” as an example.
I know you are usually polite which I appreciate. But I gotta say it’s not how I would frame it. More like MLs vs. the world. Plenty of leftists on the outside here.
I wish I could engage in debate on Lemmy.ml but the censorship makes it impossible. I used to learn things from you guys but now I just avoid all those spaces because it’s impossible to have a real conversation if you don’t 100% agree with Dessalines on every single issue. I don’t understand how anyone finds that tolerable.
In my experience, the ones that get truly censored are the ones that either are insistent on repeating outright misinformation, or genuinely break the rules via ableism, racism, homophobia, etc. I speak with plenty of people that disagree with me on Lemmy.ml, and they usually only get temp-banned if they do one of those things. Permabanning is more for repeat offenses.
As for it being MLs vs. the world, that really isn’t my experience either. I organize in real life with people that don’t align with me 100% all the time, and when I’m on Hexbear I obviously get along with Maoists, anarchists, etc. as well. The source of major beef between lemmy.world specifically and Lemmy.ml specifically is as I said, western progressive liberal vs. Marxists, or even more generally liberal vs. leftist.
If there’s something you’re interested in discussing, I’m fine to do so, but I don’t normally like engaging in spaces that defederate from Hex and Grad, ie apply a blanket firewall against the majority of Marxists on Lemmy. Discussion in non-Marxist spaces, where the majority of commenters are insulated from Marxists, usually results in the kind of slapfighting you see all over this thread over real conversation.
In spaces that actually allow strong Marxist participation, discussion around Marxism is more intricate, such as this conversation about the subject of “Dengism” I had with someone more critical of China over on Lemmygrad. This is just one example, but it isn’t just a one-sided censorship campaign. I have been permabanned from Political Memes for pointing out the DNC’s participation in the Palestinian genocide, and from every comm PugJesus moderates because they lost an argument in an unrelated comm. I’m banned from Memes of Production for “voting while tankie,” because Deceptichum defended Hungarian Nazis for opposing the soviets. It’s tiring.
All in all, I mean this to say that discussion goes both ways, and it isn’t simply because Lemmy.ml unilaterally censors.
but the censorship makes it impossible.
the vast majority of the time I look into the supposed censorship on .ml it’s someone being bigoted or insulting the person they’re responding to
Yeah because mods there consider any criticism of your ideas or allied governments “bigotry”. It’s absurd. I can only assume from this comment that you share this view.
It’s the exact same logic zionists use to shield Israel from criticism.
ML is run by heavily-indoctrinated communists. They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
lemmy.world is kind of run by pussies. They blocked the piracy sublemmy for no real reason other than that.
It doesn’t surprise me they are butting heads. Hopefully the instances that allow interaction with both instances triumph over those that try to restrict access.
They’re the type that straight up worship communist leaders.
I wouldn’t phrase it at that. They’re fans of Russia, China, Iran, and pretty much any other country that’s antagonistic to the US. This regardless of whether said state is communist, especially Russia, which has become fascist under Putin’s rule.
In short, the .ml owners are tankies
If you disagree that .ml are communist and insist that they’re “tankies” instead, it seems to imply that not all communists are “tankies.” However, every single communist I’m aware of is called a tankie. What does a communist who isn’t a tankie look like? Are there examples of such a thing?
Are you saying communism necessarily implies authoritarianism? What about anarchists?
The anarchist conception of communism is more like communalism, while the Marxist conception is more like collectivism. When I say “communalization,” I mean anarchists propose horizontalist, decentralized cells, similar to early humanity’s cooperative production but with more interconnection and modern tech. When I say collectivization, I mean the unification of all of humanity into one system, where production and distribution is planned collectively to satisfy the needs of everyone as best as possible.
For anarchists, collectivized society still seems to retain the state, as some anarchists conflate administration with the state as it represents a hierarchy. For Marxists, this focus on communalism creates inter-cell class distinctions, as each cell only truly owns their own means of production, giving rise to class distinctions and thus states in the future.
For Marxists, socialism must have a state, a state can only wither with respect to how far along it has come in collectivizing production and therefore eliminating class. All states are authoritarian, but we cannot get rid of the state without erasing the foundations of the state: class society, and to do so we must collectivize production and distribution globally. Socialist states, where the working class wields its authority against capitalists and fascists, are the means by which this collectivization can actually happen, and are fully in-line with Marx’s beliefs. Communism as a stateless, classless, moneyless society is only possible post-socialism.
Abolishing the state overnight would not create the kind of society Marxists advocate for advancing towards, and if anything, would result in the resumption of competition and the resurgance of capitalism if Marx and Engels predictions are correct.
None of this was specific to Marxism-Leninism, but Marxism in general. In this sense, Marxist communism does believe in using state authority to oppress the bourgeousie and reactionaries, just like capitalists use the state to oppress the working classes and revolutionaries. The major difference is that socialist states are working class authorities, not owning class, and as such the class interest points to negating class and therefore the basis of the state. This is why dialectical materialism is core to Marxism.
Anarchists are cool, but they’re really only a minority of communists worldwide. Whatever you think “authoritarianism” is (as far as I’m concerned if you believe in having a state at all, then that state will exercise a monopoly on violence and will be repressive) it describes almost every single communist on planet earth. The game of splitting hairs on what does and doesn’t count as a “tankie” achieves nothing but divide a movement that has common cause.
If I’m being forthright, I’ll just go ahead and ask: if anarchists are the only communists, why even have the concept of “tankies” at all? Why not just say you’re pro-anarchist and anti-communist? From my perspective, all that the whole thing of saying that there supposedly are communists who aren’t “tankies” achieves is create two categories:
- Real people who exist in the real world and have actual, flawed political movements
- Imaginary perfect people that only exist in your head
Then because you can find real examples of the first category, you can find the flaws they have, and compare them to the ideal people in the second category. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe there really are a ton of Marxists out there that figured out the secret to having a perfectly consistent anti-authoritarian ideology that is still distinct from anarchism. If you could let me know who they are, that’d be awesome.
We live in a dictatorship of capital, you’re not going to be able to get consent from capitalists to overthrow them.
If you’re intersted in revolutionary change you’re going to be authoritarian to someone. The capitalists not going to be on board for getting their property redistributed.
If you’re not interested in revolution you’re the compatible left
Are you seriously conflating communism with authoritarianism?
It’s like you guys went through the red scare and instead of figuring it was a stupid insane witch hunt without any real foundation, decided that the republican definition of “communism = evil” was actually true, but you wanted in anyway. It’s ridiculous.
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian. And I feel like you’re failing to interrogate whether your concept of authoritarianism is being used with any amount of consistency or if it’s just a club you wield against people who have positions you disagree with for other reasons.
I remain at the same place, yet to understand how one can be a communist and not authoritarian.
I think you maybe need to read a book then. Try starting with “The Communist Manifesto”
Will do!
When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organized power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organize itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Another fun quote, though not from the manifesto:
We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.
OK, so maybe you don’t know what “authoritarian” means? Because,
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.
Is not it.
Edit: A period of time where the proletariat organizes power to eliminate the bourgeoisie in order to get rid of those previous class divides, is not authoritarianism.
It’s such an irony to me that people who call us “tankies” and say that we are somehow caricatures of communists, always make such caricatures out of themselves. Like, instead of engaging with any of FunkyStuff’s very reasonable, calmly stated questions, you go off about how we (“tankies”) just decided to be evil, and calling us ridiculous while behaving in such a ridiculous, blatantly and needlessly antagonistic way yourself. It’s over the top.
Paraphrasing:
FunkyStuff: asks a calm, concise series of questions that are meant to help clarify the issue.
lunnrais: “See?! Look how frothing these evil, ridiculous lunatic tankies are!!”And this after correctly recognizing that the red scare was a terrible witch hunt? But it was people like us, people who believe what we believe, that were the “witches” of that particular persecution. We are simply what most communists in the world look like, we believe what most communists in the world believe, people who have very clear and consistent views. But instead of honestly trying to engage or actually understand why “tankies” believe the things they do, you just smear us with lies and pretend that the position of Marxist-Leninist communists is just some bananas, made-up-on-the-fly, contrarian position, rather than one with deep foundations that have been developed over decades of intense thought and practice including by people fighting in the trenches for their own and others liberation. To you, were the Black Panthers “tankies”? Do you know about their mutual support of and with North Korea, or did they just decide to be “evil” to pwn the libs? Was Che Guevara a “tankie”? Is Michael Parenti? Were they all just ridiculous contrarians who liked the picture that reactionaries (“republicans”) painted of them?
edit: removing duplicate comment.
MLs aren’t “fans” of Russia or Iran, but value their geopolitical opposition to the west, the imperialist hegemony. MLs do tend to be fans of the PRC, as it’s a socialist country. The idea that a country has to be 100% ideologically aligned in order to get even critical support from a communist just plays into the idea that communists are obsessed with purity testing, but that’s not the case.
It’s absolutely absurd that westerners consider people with wildly heterodox views to be the “indoctrinated” ones.
Supporting communists is not the same as worship. The devs and mods are certainly ideologically committed, but not out of sheer blind religious adherance.
Right. You guys don’t just “support” communists; you worship them.
No? I’m a communist, and I support communism. Worship has nothing to do with it. Can you explain what you mean by that?
If you’re truly clueless and not just feigning ignorance, then head on over to !worldnews@lemmy.ml and say something critical of a communist leader.
See how quickly you get banned.
You are feigning ignorance though because that’s how indoctrinated you are.
head on over to !worldnews@lemmy.ml and say something critical of a communist leader.
Look at who you’re replying to. They’re not capable of fulfilling your request.
I already have done so, though.
I’ve been critical of communists and communist leaders before, I think you’re confusing disinformation being removed with any and all critique being removed. Critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique.
Sure you did. You’re going to say whatever you think will defend your indoctrination.
That’s how this works.
Anyone with a brain can look at the lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
I’ve mentioned that the PRC is lacking in LGBTQIA+ rights (though they are improving), that population transfer in the soviet union was one of its worst crimes, that Stalin’s homophobia was deeply reactionary, that I’d prefer if the PRC was more millitantly anti-imperialist than they are presently, that revisionism and mismanagement began a trend of liberalization in the USSR that contributed to its collapse, that the PRC made a huge error in backing Cambodia against Vietnam, and much more than this.
I’m not “indoctrinated,” and anyond can look at the Lemmy.ml modlog to see for themselves that you’re full of shit.
I just checked the most recent lemmy.ml modlog and it was someone getting their comments removed for calling someone a racist because they said that most white people are racist.
Maybe you weren’t banned because you wre from .ml they have banned me on an alt account for expressing my opinion that soviet occupation didn’t help my country.
Modlog link? I maintain that critique based on disinformation isn’t valid critique, so it depends on what you said.
Just my own personal experience but by far most of the worst experiences I have on here come from .world users. Though to be fair bunch of them did move to piefed.
I block ml users on sight so I didn’t even notice
Rotten apples have thicker skin.
I dunno man. I just signed up as reddit imploded. I wasn’t thinking political ideology. I just needed a refuge. I’m happy, and grateful for my adopted home.
Tbh I blocked all ml posts from my all feed and started blocking ml users on sight for my own mental health
I get in almost zero arguments online now and actually enjoy using this platform
Sorry about the block. It’s not you, it’s your instance.
block me if you haven’t, you seem painful to interact with
I signed up for the developer’s instance because fuck reddit, and I do dev work.
Server choice had nothing to do with any political shit. I barely knew what federation was at the time. Lemmy immediately proved there are as many bandwagoning idiots as reddit here.
I have nothing to say about world though, I don’t use the platform that much.
I originally did this and ended up having to remake my account on .world. I just couldn’t stand the negativity and constant fighting on .ml. I was able to find a non-ml alternative to every community I was subscribed to. YMMV but it was completely worth it for me
I’m not hopping instances, I will just leave. Social media is worth very little to me. Abandoning it would mean nothing to me.
The fediverse isn’t going to be one all-encompassing thing like reddit. As time goes on, there will be different “sections” of the fediverse to accommodate people with different interests.
Lemmy.world, being run by pussies, thinks that because they’re the largest instance right now that they get to dictate the direction the fediverse goes in. As more people wake up to their censorship, more instances will sprout up to resist it.
It’s great that nobody is beholden to the decisions of either instance’s admins. That’s the beauty of the fediverse.
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This post is a good example of said slander/infighting, as MLs are inherently not dogmatic, and having consistent values is painted as being homogenous.
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What’s with all the new users in the past week or two?
Big push to move off of American sites in response to Trump. So lots of Europeans and what not are joining here.
lol, dunning meets kruger.
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me on sh:
I like both instances.
Found the guy who’s political ideology can only be described by a fringe Indian faction of the TNO mod for Hearts of Iron 4.
World users are just mad that the lemmy devs use ML which means they can’t verifiably call them uneducated morons, and ML users are mad that the World users are just smart enough to know the difference between socialism and communism that they won’t just auto buy into it lol.
World users are just smart enough to know the difference between socialism and communism
what is the difference between socialism and communism?
I wish they were smart enough to know the difference between socialism and communism.
Socialism is when public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state, communism is when all production and distribution have been collectivized through socialism. Communism is therefore a post-socialist society, and socialism cannot last as a static system without advancing towards communism, because nothing is static.
It’s a mid-off
Both sides use it as testing grounds for bots and propaganda before taking them to real social media.
Any evidence of this?
