I find these discussions seem to be dominated by young urbanites. People who don’t need a car to get around as opposed to the huge number of people who live in areas that require a car to function. They are also physically able to bike many miles every day in any weather.
I took public transportation when I lived in a big city and was glad to have it but anytime I needed to go beyond a limited area in the city I needed a car. Now I live in an area with very limited public transportation and very very little is in walking distance and biking for my needs is not an alternative. Frequently using 100% public transportation routes would increase your travel time by a large amount, time you may not have or want to sacrifice. If you live in country like France it seems like the transit unions have a stranglehold on the nation as they can shut down everyone at will, if you have a car you at least have an alternative. There are also breakdown issues, maintenance shutdowns, etc. You also run into the last mile issue a lot. Where you need to go is frequently not a reasonable distance from the stop. I usually needed a car to get to the train stations for instance.
I would have to drive about 45 minutes to get to any form of public transport that isn’t a school bus.
Wow, that sucks. We should definitely build some transit near you so you aren’t so isolated. You need some freedom.
I’m too disabled to drive, I don’t live in a city, and I only bike between 0.5 and 1 km per day. I don’t have the slightest need for a car and I can still do whatever I want.
Be nice if we had trams tho
huge number of people who live in areas that require a car to function
That is exactly the problem. Areas that require a car to function shouldn’t exist. That’s what those “young urbanites” are arguing for.
So vast swaths of the earth should be depopulated? Hold on while they open the camps…
That was a bit exaggerated, but tbh. areas where you have to use the car should be the exception, not the rule. Places where you have to drive to do stuff are a nightmare for everyone too old, too young or otherwise not able/allowed to drive or to afford a car.
Who’s saying that? Don’t put words in my mouth. Maybe read before kneejerking.
Yep if you’ve been around for several decades, and traveled around a diverse selection of urban and rural areas, you will likely reach the obvious conclusion that cars are a significant magnifier of personal freedom. If you don’t have a car, you can’t just leave your home and get in the vehicle and go anywhere you want. But when you do have a car, you can immediately travel, and go anywhere that roads do. And with certain vehicles, you don’t even need roads and you can go anywhere the terrain doesn’t physically block your path.
Couldn’t agree more. Being single in my twenties presented very different needs and capabilities than being a pregnant mother, or an aging single mom taking care of even more aging parents.
There are few topics that reveal privilege and ignorance faster than this one. It’s a hallmark of immaturity to think there’s a simple answer to ANY social problem.
Young people often have the tendency to be both ageist and ableist at times.
Hi, I’m disabled and I can’t drive. Stop fucking calling the transit and walkability movement ableist. The transit and walkability movement has been life-saving to people like me.
I understand and I’m glad you’ve benefitted from it, but you’re ignoring the large number of people with disabilities that cannot walk any significant distance, while they can still drive. Old people also have an easier time driving than they do walking long distances and using public transit. Hell, I personally know plenty of people who choose to drive because they can’t walk for long without someone actively assisting them, even though they can still drive. My sibling, in fact, is one of them; the ‘transit and walkability’ movement doesn’t give two shits about them, however.
I’m not against more public transport and foot access; in fact, as an able-bodied young male who doesn’t want unnecessary debt or to be stuck in traffic, I’d prefer it. However, let’s not pretend that a lot of people haven’t been completely forgotten by the ‘lul fuck cars’ crowd.
Dutch style microcars are a greener and safer solution to physical disability and aging than full size full speed cars. Especially when you’re talking about elderly people with deteriorating eyesight and slower reactions. Car dependency helps a precious few disabled people while leaving the rest of us up shit creek and contributing to the extinction of the human species. The transit and walkability movement has a solution for everyone.
Yeah, cuz people don’t need to shop. Also, I’m sorry if people like my sibling fall into a ‘precious few’ but you’re gonna need to get everyone on board if you’re selling accessibility.
The transit and walkability movement has a solution for everyone.
Clearly.
I don’t know who told you that you couldn’t, but you can park a microcar at a shop.
People need space to put stuff, and there’s only so much that can be put into a dinky-ass microcar’s boot. Not to mention, people travel in groups too.
If you get a referral to a specialist, you cannot reach them with public transpo from my town. And our bus circuit encompasses three small towns and the nearby military base.
You have to have your own transportation to make it to either of the metro centers 30-45 minutes away.
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Another similar thing that I hate are countries that require bicycles to have pedals and be power-assist only.
This is fair I think. In Europe, to be classified as a bicycle, you have power/speed limits and assist requirement. However you get to ride on paths that are designed for bicycle speeds (often adjacent or mixed with pedestrians), don’t require any license or training, can go against traffic in many one way streets etc. It makes sense to limit the use of all that stuff to bicycle like vehicles.
However you can have other types of electric bikes, they just aren’t bicycles by law any more, which makes sense in my opinion. Want to go scooter/motorcycle speeds and twist throttle and all that stuff, you also need the correct license, insurance and have to drive on the road that is designed for higher speeds.
Granted, one could argue about the specifics of the distinction, but in my opinion there definitely needs to be a distinction in the law and you have to draw the line somewhere.
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If it’s about limiting it to bicycle type speeds, that could be done separately.
Yeah, but at least in some legislations, there already is a class of vehicles that is limited to those speeds but isn’t classified as a bicycle. In Germany, a Mofa is a motorized bicycle but requires a helmet and a simple license and insurance.
I guess the idea was to include electric bicycles into the bicycle category only with some strict distinctions to avoid blurring the line to already existing motorized two wheelers. And I do like that I can ride my electric bike everywhere I can ride a non assisted bicycle and without any stricter rules for equipment etc.
As an aside, IMO riding a bicycle or any vehicle on roads as opposed to a vehicle specific path for any considerable length of time should require having to get a permit and maybe even a license and insurance, because participating in it is much more about the flow of traffic than the characteristics of a particular vehicle.
That would be a huge loss of freedom though, insurance and thus license requirements would raise the barrier to entry massively which is exactly the opposite of what you want. Same with requirements for helmet or permit and it would seriously limit the independence of teenagers. There just isn’t a separate path away from car traffic everywhere.
Just an add here … Pedestrian fatalities are up, largely due to huge vehicles in general. But EVs tend to be very heavy because of the batteries. So collisions tend to be very unpleasant.
Larger physical body - that has a higher impact point on a human - has a much greater chance to kill someone, than if it was a lower impact point.
Not to mention the reduction in visibility.
Sauce: https://twitter.com/FreckleEars/status/1624137853872574475/photo/1
The line of sight numbers are telling. Thank you for providing this information.
This video explains really well exactly why transit is better than cars: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=j4s9WDDRE2A
This one too: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=WiI1AcsJlYU
I also like to point to this graphic:
Cars are just an insanely inefficient way to move people around in cities.
I just bought an electric motorbike, design is like a Vespa. I love it. Top speed kinda sucks but I love it. I’d love to take a train or bus instead but there is literally no line between my work and home that doesn’t involve a longer walk than the ride itself.
Care to share the one you’ve bought? 🧐 I’m also considering one
I bought a Segway/ninebot e300se. It has a range of wltc ~85km (or ~130 with a 3rd battery) and a top speed of 100km/h and it cost as much as an high end electric bicycle.
https://eu-en.segway.com/products/segway-escooter-e300se
Note, apparently, that former US brand doesn’t sell in the US. .
Wait, what about autonomous bicycles?
I just want the vehicles from Minority Report, is that so much to ask for?
For me it’s because I want an electric car and don’t really care about other modes of transit. I don’t want to be in a dense city, and a car is far more practical outside of one.
How do you have time to do anything when you’re stuck in traffic all day?
I’m not. I largely work from home, but when I am out I don’t go into the city because I’m not a big fan of being around people.
Oh, so you do all your travel in the suburbs? Goodness, no wonder you work from home! You poor thing.
Eh. 3 bedroom house for $1300/month, 2 car garage with a forge inside it, and a 2Gbps unlimited fiber line. I’m fine not venturing into the city.
That house would be even cheaper if there were less demand for it, and there would be less demand for single family homes if the supply of medium density dwellings were improved. Lots of people would want to live in the cheaper to build, cheaper to live in terrace houses, row houses, duplexes, town houses, flats, and brownstones. And with people moving out of the suburbs, your suburb house would get cheaper.
I know exactly 0 people that want to live in the projects.
I know a bunch of people that do live there, however.
They all hate the row houses, terrace housing, etc.
What is the advantage of autonomous trains over regular? It seems to me that when driving a train is your job, the autonomy just takes it away.
Because I don’t want to stay in the city all the time?
What I mean when i say I want a subway system
I see nothing wrong with a complex subway map and it is absolutely not a disadvantage. Try comparing it to a map of the roads maybe? A 2D space served by 1D lines necessitate a mesh-like network to do well, has nothing to do with transit or cars, a comprehensive system will always look like this.
And you memorize literally all the stations and their order if you take transit regularly.
Im not in disagreement. I actually prefer being a sardine in a can than driving.
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Let it be known that I do not want to attack you personally. But the notion of electric bikes being death traps is something I can’t take seriously. I could go outside right now and film the street for an hour and watch 50% of bikes going by being electric, not to mention that you’d be hard pressed to find anyone wearing a helmet or protective gear.
Electric bikes here are generally limited to 25kmh (15mph) and the electric motor will stop the moment you go over that speed. Besides, most people generally don’t reach that speed because the largest users of electric bikes here are the over 50.
In my personal experience the problem isn’t so much the vehicle as the infrastructure being made for it. For context I live in the Netherlands in a smaller city (far from Amsterdam).
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25mph != 25kmh
Here the trains and busses are both electric, and the buses charge with overhead chargers at the main bus station.
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“Here” is in the Netherlands. Now don’t get me wrong, we definitely do not use them everywhere (yet), but it’s viable at least.
https://www.ebusco.com/dutch-forerunner-in-europe-switching-to-electric-buses/
You don’t need cars to travel small towns. People have been travelling small towns without cars for thousands of years.
Of all the subreddits we should’ve left on reddit.
This braindead circlejerk never should’ve come here. You are all completely disconnected from reality. Enjoy your larping.
I would argue that those who are disconnected from reality are those who believe in a system that essentially requires every single person to own and operate a 2+ ton piece of heavy machinery just to get groceries or go to school or work.
Imagine thinking all people outside urban areas can exist with a bike and public transportation. Ignorance is bliss, eh?
Well that’s not what I think.
What I think is the majority of people on this planet live in urban areas. In wealthy countries like in Europe, North America, and Oceania, the share that lives in cities is an overwhelming majority. In those areas, who represent the vast majority of the population, we have often systematically gatekeeped access to schools, jobs, and groceries behind a massive paywall that is the ownership and operation of heavy machinery. Urban areas absolutely do not need car-dependency. Rural areas are obviously different, and fixing car-dependency for 80% of the population will actually improve things for rural folks: less suburban sprawl means less encroachment of suburbia into the countryside.
I respect your point but fundamentally disagree with it. Your utopia of having sprawling public transportation networks is not achievable in any realistic timeframe due to many factors, nature being top of the list. You’re also clearly biased in your urban belief. Population growth drives expansion, and you ignored the sections of the planet still booming, lacking proper infrastructure, and growing rapidly in and out of urban areas.
Would this work in Europe,? Sure, but that doesn’t make you correct in applying it world wide.
Most growth in the world is in urban areas. There’s a reason most projections expect the largest cities in the world by the end of the century to be places like Kinshasa, DRC. Much like London grew precipitously during its industrialization, like Shanghai and Beijing grew during their industrialization, now growing stupendously are the cities of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia. The fact of the matter is most growth globally is occurring in cities.
And yes, poor infrastructure is an issue. When NYC and London industrialized, they built massive subway systems. And if you want to grow with car-dependence, it still requires infrastructure. Instead of railroads, roads. Instead of trains, parking lots. Instead of depots, gas stations and charging stations.
And yes, I agree it will be a massive challenge to rebuild our cities in places like North America, but we already did it once, only about 60 years ago. Our urban freeways were built by demolishing entire neighborhoods. Our urban parking lots came from demolishing dense, historic buildings. Our urban roads came from tearing up massive tram networks. For example, Melbourne Australia has the largest tram network on the entire planet. Why? Because they were the one city that didn’t tear up their system with the advent of the automobile. Before cars, basically all cities in US/Canada/Australia/etc. were built on truly massive public transit networks.
But the beautiful thing about fixing car dependency is it will actually be easier. Instead of demolishing neighborhoods, the main thing we have to demolish is parking lots. The land values in city centers are absolutely insane, and housing will get built if just legally allow it (just look at Santa Monica, where new California housing law saw a historic flurry of housing project proposals). We currently make it literally illegal to do so across the vast majority of our urban land.
Edit: For reference, I was born and raised in American suburban sprawl, so it’s not like I’m some holier-than-though, out-of-touch European who has never set foot outside a transit-rich city. Further, the current model of car-dependent suburban sprawl is inherently financially unsustainable, and it will come to an end sooner or later. We might as well save ourselves the pain of a slow, excruciating collapse like Detroit and choose to go in the direction of a more environmentally and fiscally sustainable model. We genuinely don’t really have a choice.
Yeah wow the 15% of people who don’t live in cities should really be our highest priority to keep in mind at all times when designing cities.
It is possible to block communities on lemmy, if it is bothering you that much.
First thing I did after seeing this post.
Cars offer nothing but death and destruction under the guise of freedom. Those who can’t see that are the ones disconnected from reality.
Personally I enjoy cleaner, quieter cities and safer streets, but I guess that’s just nuts, right?
“Cars offer nothing but death and destruction”
Fucking lmao can you hear yourself?? Seriously?? That’s the only thing that cars offer?? I wasn’t going to reply further in this thread because this community is a fucking joke but your comment was so profoundly stupid I just couldn’t help myself. I’d call it a braindead take but it’s just so insubstantial and incorrect that I’m not even sure it qualifies as a “take”.
Are you an 18th century horse salesman? Carriage driver? Farrier? Or are you an edgy middle schooler who just found their first shitty internet opinion?
You are so far gone from the real world I doubt you could ever make it back to planet earth.
Pull your head out of your ass and pay attention to reality. Grow up.
The car and oil industries are killing the environment and the cars themselves are a leading cause of death in cities all over the world. I’m not the one who needs to grow up here, bud. I live in reality, and that reality is a dying earth and death defying walks to work when cars won’t respect my inability to protect myself against them.
If it weren’t for the car and oil industries we’d have efficient trains taking us across the country instead of fossil fuel chugging planes and individual automobiles.
Yeah this is ridiculous, I’m all for mass transit but good luck getting anything done outside of a city without a car. Idiots. Yeah let’s just go back to horses.
sniffles WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
That’s what you sound like
Hilariously ironic, thank you for that.
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![[meme] Why do people only seem to mean cars when they talk about electric and/or autonomous vehicles?](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8b4f07d2-ffe9-468c-a7da-0e970998b67f.png){kind=link}