I’ve seen lots of discussion on reddit of users trying to get others to join Lemmy and the prevailing reply is that it is too difficult to navigate and comprehend. Having to answer multiple questions and wait for manual verification is combersome and is limiting growth at a time when nothing should be standing in Lemmy’s way. Combine this with server/instance selection analysis paralysis, and you get my point.

The linked mastodon blog post sums up my thoughts, but the TLDR is essentially this:

Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Don’t let dreams of decentralization interfere with the greater goal of achieving the network effect.

We should all be telling people to go to lemmy.ml and sign up. The devs should be too, and they should rethink/remove the questions and waiting period. Hell, just put a captcha. Discussions about servers and analogies to email as an example of federated service we all already use is a waste of breath. We shouldn’t have barriers to entry.

Thoughts?

EDIT: I’ve just found kbin.social and find it has superior signup options. It’s just: make an account (email/password), or sign up with Google or Apple. No server talk. Upside is the layout is nice and it acts as a Lemmy instance (threads) as well as a mastodon instance (microblogging). Only downside currently is that their android/iOS app is in development and isn’t ready yet, so desktop only.

https://github.com/ernestwisniewski/kbin

https://kbin.social/

I think this might be the better recommendation for newbies at the moment.

  • @alienBlues@lemmy.ml
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    2010 months ago

    I’m a new user, so my opinion counts as such. My first concern upon signing up was understanding which communities I was allowed to see from which instance. Maybe a page where people can search by communities first and then show them where they are hosted/federated could solve this issue. Also, improving federations between servers could ease the signup process too. If any server allows communities from most other servers to be viewed, choosing what instance to join will be more a matter of personal beliefs and tastes than else.

    I’m afraid that setting a default instance could cause it to experience explosive growth and monopolization of the communities. As someone pointed out in a comment in another post, while users on Lemmy are growing, donations are not, so the bill for a single instance with all the people on it will probably be huge. Also, if all the largest communities are going to be on a single instance, how difficult will be to create new original ones to bring some people to the small servers?

    Captchas are bad for privacy. They allow the provider to track users between websites, and they are also bad for people because they are generally hard to solve for people with impairments. Also, automated solutions to bypass captchas exist on the market.

    Also, I believe a network with high-quality content is better than a bigger generalist one. A little barrier of entry and manual screening of people may serve well for this purpose, so I’m favorable to keeping it.

    • vxnxnt
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      810 months ago

      Well said. This is pretty much what it comes down to imo. A decentralized platform should avoid all centralization at any cost. Monopolization just hurts other instances and communities while severely limiting diversity.

    • @makingStuffForFun@lemmy.ml
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      210 months ago

      My exact thoughts when signing up. So I simply picked the biggest and joined and here I am. I was hoping for an art / creative focused community. I would host my own instance but I’d need a way for images to be hosted on imgur, etc.

  • @that_one_guy@lemmy.ml
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    1710 months ago

    I think the main problem here is that there isn’t a really accessible explanation of federation and how these social platforms differ from the other, larger options. There is lots of great documentation for interested users to acquaint themselves with, but it would be beneficial to have a more ‘elevator pitch’ version that can get people moving through the signup process with more confidence. Even just a short message saying: “hey, choosing your instance isn’t as important as it looks right now, you’ll be able to freely use any other instance once you sign up” could go a long way towards making on-boarding much smoother. Once a user is in the system, they can learn what details they care about through osmosis for the most part.

    I do think that having a default instance would help with streamlining the on-boarding process, but I don’t think that the idea aligns with the values of lemmy as a whole. It’s important to keep services decentralized in order to keep things free and open.

    • @Catsrules@lemmy.ml
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      10 months ago

      I personally look at federation like email. Doesn’t matter if I am using a Hotmail email address. I can still talk to everyone over at gmail, icloud, yahoo, Comcast etc…

      email is the original federation service.

      • @Kaldo@beehaw.org
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        310 months ago

        As a person new to federations, I have to admit that the mail analogy doesn’t really answer or clarify much. Who decides what gets to go into a federation? Should everyone be in a single federation since otherwise there is no communication? Do I need a separate account per federation? Whats the practical limit on number of instances per federation?

        I think first of all we need a really good FAQ.

        • @WhipperSnapper@lemmy.ml
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          310 months ago

          I think first of all we need a really good FAQ.

          I think you’re right. For example, I’m still unclear about communities across different servers. is /c/gaming showing me everyone’s posts to /c/gaming, or just those from my own server? If I search for a community, will I see the results even if there’s no instance of that community on my own server?

          I agree with everyone saying this is critical to the success of the platform. It shouldn’t take research to understand what you’re signing up for, at least if anyone wants to see success in picking up where reddit left off.

          • @Barbarian@lemmy.ml
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            310 months ago

            To answer the question, communities are server specific. There are 2 separate gaming communities on lemmy.ml and beehaw.org that I know of, and probably more by now.

            About needing better documentation, I could not agree more! It’s very understandable considering that just 3 days ago this was a place with 1k users at peak and 2 devs plugging away at improving the framework. This is an open source project, so be the change you want to see (not directed specifically at you, that’s for everyone). We can make this whatever we want, but people need to put in work. Been trying to answer as many questions as I can reasonably answer for a few hours now :)

            • @WhipperSnapper@lemmy.ml
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              10 months ago

              communities are server specific

              Thanks for the info. I was actually under the impression that the opposite was true. Wouldn’t that heavily incentivize joining an already popular server?

              • @Barbarian@lemmy.ml
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                10 months ago

                No, because being on a different server does not impede you in the slightest from subbing, posting and commenting in the more popular one. Think of it as the difference between /r/gaming and /r/truegaming. Same subject, different communities.

                • @WhipperSnapper@lemmy.ml
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                  210 months ago

                  Oh I see, so even if the community is hosted on a different server, I can still search for and sub it. It just gets dicey if there are multiple instances of the same community on different servers. I guess then that’s something that needs to be mitigated too, and I’ve seen other folks in this thread talking about fragmentation. Again, thanks for the info.

                  I will say there’s a spark here that’s been missing from reddit for a long time. Similar to how reddit felt before the digg folks came over. I’m enjoying it!

        • @Barbarian@lemmy.ml
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          10 months ago

          Lemme try my best in order:

          1. The admins. The people who run the server the community is hosted on.
          2. Ideally, yes. But each instance gets to decide who they ban. If there’s an AngryNazi.fuckyou instance, each other instance can decide they don’t want to talk to them or see their communities.
          3. Again, each instance decides who they federate with. Don’t want your instance to get banned on another instance? Control your users.
          4. I guess? If your a user of AngryNazi.fuckyou and that instance gets banned in a lot of instances, you will need to make a new account in a less tainted instance.
          5. Unlimited (depending on hardware power Vs users, of course)
        • @zksmk@lemmy.ml
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          210 months ago

          I think you’re getting hung up on the word “federations” (noun) instead of the adjective “federated”.

          Who decides who gets to email who? The email provider admins. Should everyone be in a single email network/bubble since otherwise there is no communication? Mostly, yes. Do I need a separate account per email bubble? Per email bubble? Yes. But how many email bubbles are there? One? Whats the practical limit on number of providers per the email world? None, mostly?

          Gmail does ban a lot of small email providers if they don’t seem “legit” enough. And that is where you’re onto something with the noun federations.

          If a bunch of instances really disliked a different bunch of instances they can indeed severe each other from each other. The admins would do that. They put the other instances on a block list. Most Mastodon instances block Trump’s Lie ehm Truth Social etc. But otherwise you can talk from gmail to hotmail to mcselfhost, with one account.

          Basically federation works based on a block-list, not a allow-list, unless the admins of the instance set it that way, just like email providers.

    • @thegiddystitcher@beehaw.org
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      610 months ago

      A default instance would help people signup more easily, but afaik there’s currently no way to migrate to another instance right? So this approach already causes problems on Mastodon but it seems like it would be even worse over here due to people then being “trapped” on whatever the default is.

  • @iod@lemmy.ml
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    10 months ago

    yes please. This is lemmy’s time to shine. If the servers can handle the load and people don’t understand the Fediverse just yet, i say let people be directed towards one good location.

    As far as i can tell, after people join and learn the basic interface they start asking questions about the broader capabilities of the fediverse on their own.

    • CosmicSploogeDrizzleOP
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      1010 months ago

      Yes! And the devs should then make a big blog post like my linked mastodon post. Then we can spread it all over reddit starting on the 3rd party app communities for Apollo, Reddit is Fun, Sync for Reddit, Bacon Reader, Narwhal, etc.

      The users will flood in…just like good lemmings do

  • @RoaringSilence@feddit.de
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    10 months ago

    EDIT: I’ve just found kbin.social and find it has superior signup options. It’s just: make an account (email/password), or sign up with Google or Apple. No server talk. Upside is the layout is nice and it acts as a Lemmy instance (threads) as well as a mastodon instance (microblogging). Only downside currently is that their android/iOS app is in development and isn’t ready yet, so desktop only.

    It could be the fediverse thing we are waiting for, but to use it in the current state as a first entry point has some downsides.

    • it is early beta with a lot of features not implemented yet.

    • the website still works good, even on mobile.

    • in addition to the concept of groups, posts and comments you now have instances, threads, microblogs and magazines. That’s overwhelming and drives people off. The masses don’t care how it is technically implemented as long as it’s easy to handle.

    • Edit: as a benefit to be an active part of all those integrated fediverse parts you have to set up several accounts for each part, not only for kbin don’t have to set up an extra account in lemmy or mastodon. You can post from within kbin.

    Don’t get me wrong, as already mentioned I would love to see a fediverse browser collecting everything together. But for now that’s future talk.

  • @Fabriek@beehaw.org
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    1310 months ago

    I think the way Mastodon is handling new users is pretty problematic. Not only did this lead to huge amounts of spam on the network because Eugen’s instance couldn’t handle the amount of new users, but also this goes against the very idea of federation.

    Unpopular opinion: if finding an instance is too hard for you, maybe the federated internet just isn’t for you. I see people on reddit still complaining about how difficult Mastodon is, and I’m sorry but if that’s too complicated for you, just stay on reddit. Considering the level of discourse of both sites, I think it’s a feature, not a bug.

    • Joshua
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      2310 months ago

      Unpopular opinion: if finding an instance is too hard for you, maybe the federated internet just isn’t for you.

      I don’t really agree with that take. With an attitude like that, Lemmy, Mastodon, Pixelfed, etc will never take off. You’ll always be here screaming into the void because no one else will be around to chat.

      Without making the on-boarding easier, Reddit, Meta, and Twitter will continue to screw everyone over.

      There’s nothing wrong with throwing someone in an instance to get them used to everything, especially when you are able to move your entire account to a different instance easily. It’s not like you’re locked down to the instance you were originally placed in.

      I mean shit, I understand instances, but I gave up the first time I tried to join Mastodon because I was too lazy to sign up for an instance in my browser, and then copy the details into the app. Wasn’t the lack of knowing, it was the multistep process that felt like a waste of time.

      • @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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        1810 months ago

        Didn’t seem so hard to me. Pick an instance, fill out the sign-up form, click a link in an email, and that’s that. It was actually significantly easier than usual because it didn’t require me to spend an hour reading legalese.

        Onboarding Lemmy wasn’t awful either, but the “why do you want to be here” question was rather intimidating, as if to say I’m not welcome here until I prove my worth. The last thing we should do is give people the impression this is an exclusive club. We’re trying to filter out toxic people, not shy or humble people.

        Note that I onboarded using my desktop. If there are any issues with onboarding on a phone, I wouldn’t know.

        • @RoaringSilence@feddit.de
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          1410 months ago

          No issues on the phone.

          I took the “why do you want to be here” more as a bot barrier. But you are correct, it could block off also the wrong person.

      • @Fabriek@beehaw.org
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        1010 months ago

        Yeah you’re probably right. It’s also not very healthy to have a barrier like this around a community. You wouldn’t want just the tech savvy users on your site – there’s lots of interesting people who don’t know or care too much about computers.

        Still, I’m happy Mastodon hasn’t yet been overrun by the masses like Twitter. shudders

  • @RoaringSilence@feddit.de
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    1310 months ago

    Good point and we should spread the word as suggested.

    There are still some hurdles that will lead to problems when mass migrations happen. Not from a technical point, as I understood the servers don’t have any problem handle a lot of people, but from the community aspect.

    • FOMO, is always a considerable point when joining a instance. It must be clear that the instance is just the entry point into the fediverse and there is still access to the complete content.

    • fragmentation, while this is the whole point of the fediverse it could lead to missed chances when the critical mass for a sub is not reached as the community is spread over 10 gaming subs on different instances. A more easy process for subscription to interest groups that subscribe to all of the mentioned 10 gaming subs collected under language preferences. To solve this the apps used could support these features without the need to perform changes on the server side.

    • a standard set of communities should be there for available on every instance. But then moderation will be a problem as there is not one mod but 10 needed for the gaming example.

    I think there is still a long way to go. While I am happy with what’s there for now, bringing the people together under a fragmented structure will be the biggest challenge.

    Maybe the kbin way will help as it collects the fediverse under one interface, no matter if lemmy, mastodon or whatsoever. The only problem is the account multiplication to join everything.

    • @gnoop@lemmy.ml
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      810 months ago

      I’d like to see singular communities rather than community-per-server in the federation. If /c/NHL exists, it simply exists. Right now, each server has their own communities that other servers can also join in but you always know they’re separated.

      • ඞmir
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        10 months ago

        Yes, this. We need a way to link communities on different servers together. I want a unified feed with tech discussion from beehaw and from lemmy.ml, but right now these are two separate feeds. I also want to sub to “tech on every federated instance” but I can’t tell lemmy.ml that “hey, I want all tech news you know about”. I have to manually scrape communities and sub to all of them. And that doesn’t even help if new ones are created every day.

      • @RoaringSilence@feddit.de
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        Basically I like that too, but a decentralized structure brings it up different in the first place.

        The decentralized server, community structure has to come to a centralized information structure somehow. With the flexibility to determine on the user side what sources you want to collect in your “meta” NHL collection.

        • @gnoop@lemmy.ml
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          510 months ago

          Right now one of the problems is that, at least on lemmy.ml and beehaw.org, the default view for the front page as well as the community list is Local. You have to switch to All to see everything. The main Lemmy page touts the federation but it’s less prominent once you’re actually looking at content.

          I’d like to treat it like usenet. rec.roller-coasters is the same across usenet servers. Right now, each server might have its own. I can access all of them all, sure, but it feels fractured and splintered with, potentially, most users simply accessing their servers local community.

  • @golden_zealot@lemmy.ml
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    1210 months ago

    As a new user, I think someone with a lot of experience with federated social media platforms and Lemmy specifically should create something that can be passed around which makes it easy to understand for incoming users.

    An infographic or short video would probably help a lot.

    • CosmicSploogeDrizzleOP
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      710 months ago

      While I agree, I almost feel the opposite, at least for initial signup. One they have an account though, sure! Check out my post edit.

      I currently recommend telling people:

      “Go to kbin.social and sign up with email, Google, or Apple.”

      I think that’s all the sale that’s required. Once someone has an account and is browsing, they are going to have questions like, “what the hell is beehaw? Lol.” I think at that point they will be more receptive to learning more.

      If you show people a ppt or video beforehand I think they’ll checkout mentally and won’t give it a try.

      • @golden_zealot@lemmy.ml
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        I can respect that, but as a user who has just made an account, I am hesitant to clog the place up with a multitude of questions, particularly when I expect there are others like me who would be asking the same questions at the same time.

        I am receptive to learning more, but being new, I don’t know where to ask and there doesn’t appear to be a resource readily available I can go to in order to learn that.

        As a result I would think being proactive versus reactive might save everyone some time is all.

        Furthermore, most of the talk on reddit is to join via lemmy.ml at this point, so regardless of best practices, it should be expected this is going to be the entry point for most new people at this time.

  • @CHOPSTEEQ@lemmy.ml
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    1110 months ago

    I think it’s a great idea. Let there be an Ellis Island, accepting the tired, the hungry, the poor. As long as there are signs everywhere letting them know “you probably shouldn’t live the rest of your new life here, try somewhere else!”

    • @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
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      910 months ago

      If that’s what we want to do, then there needs to be a straightforward way to move your account to another instance.

  • @cavemeat@beehaw.org
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    1010 months ago

    Oo, I hope this posts gains traction, you’re totally right, although I speak from the perspective of someone who started out not knowing shit about fuck with federated social media, to being exclusively on it now.

  • @WhoRoger@lemmy.ml
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    810 months ago

    You can’t have a default server unless someone is ready to pay for it. (Idk how Mastodon does it.)

    What I’d do is:

    1. have every instance list its most prevalent topics/communities/interests (technology, games, communism, memes…)

    2. when the user is signing up, have them select their interests

    3. try to find the ideal match. Let the user override if they want to, perhaps let them know if the community is tiny, requires approval etc, but other than that just show a “suggested instance: example.org, change link

    • @maegul@lemmy.ml
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      110 months ago

      Mastodon is a company. A non-profit one, but they’ve had enough donations and funding for a while now to draw salaries for multiple people to the point that they were hiring earlier this year. The head of Mastodon even calls themselves the “CEO”! All of the instances that use mastodon software have to rely on their own donations from their own users. But mastodon, the central company, have enough money to hire and pay employees and run their own largest instance (by a long way) on the fediverse (which is not coincidentally the default instance to join in the app).

      This is why it’s insidious that they’re brand has become so pervasive to the point where most don’t know about the fediverse, only mastodon. It’s heading toward a form of re-centralisation of some sort. And, with the current rate of user growth (checkout https://fedidb.org/), the majority of english-speaking mastodon users may in not too long a time be all on one central instance.

  • Skimmer
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    10 months ago

    i like mastodon’s approach - its clean, simple, and easy to understand.

    i think the fediverse is just a very hard concept for people to wrap their heads around if they aren’t internet savvy or already knowledgable on these things. i think in general there needs to be an easier way to fully explain what it is and get it across to people.

    lemmy should def adopt something similar here to mastodon. i think having a default server is smart and probably the right move (with the “Pick your own server” option or something similar right below, just like what Mastodon is doing, so users easily have the option), HOWEVER i think before that happens, lemmy does need to allow migrating and moving servers, and ik lemmy.ml is being overloaded really badly rn in general, so those issues probably need to be sorted too.