Hi! Im new to self hosting. Currently i am running a Jellyfin server on an old laptop. I am very curious to host other things in the future like immich or other services. I see a lot of mention of a program called docker.
search this on The internet I am still Not very clear what it does.
Could someone explain this to me like im stupid? What does it do and why would I need it?
Also what are other services that might be interesting to self host in The future?
Many thanks!
EDIT: Wow! thanks for all the detailed and super quick replies! I’ve been reading all the comments here and am concluding that (even though I am currently running only one service) it might be interesting to start using Docker to run all (future) services seperately on the server!
A program isn’t just a program: in order to work properly, the context in which it runs — system libraries, configuration files, other programs it might need to help it such as databases or web servers, etc. — needs to be correct. Getting that stuff figured out well enough that end users can easily get it working on random different Linux distributions with arbitrary other software installed is hard, so developers eventually resorted to getting it working on their one (virtual) machine and then just (virtually) shipping that whole machine.
Docker is not a virtual machine, it’s a fancy wrapper around chroot
I’m aware of that, but OP requested “explain like I’m stupid” so I omitted that detail.
Isn’t all of this a complete waste of computer resources?
I’ve never used Docker but I want to set up a Immich server, and Docker is the only official way to install it. And I’m a bit afraid.
Edit: thanks for downvoting an honest question. Wtf.
If it were actual VMs, it would be a huge waste of resources. That’s really the purpose of containers. It’s functionally similar to running a separate VM specific to every application, except you’re not actually virtualizing an entire system like you are with a VM. Containers are actually very lightweight. So much so, that if you have 10 apps that all require database backends, it’s common practice to just run 10 separate database containers.
On the contrary. It relies on the premise of segregating binaries, config and data. But since it is only running one app, then it is a bare minimum version of it. Most containers systems include elements that also deduplicate common required binaries. So, the containers are usually very small and efficient. While a traditional system’s libraries could balloon to dozens of gigabytes, pieces of which are only used at a time by different software. Containers can be made headless and barebones very easily. Cutting the fat, and leaving only the most essential libraries. Fitting in very tiny and underpowered hardware applications without losing functionality or performance.
Don’t be afraid of it, it’s like Lego but for software.
The main “wasted” resources here is storage space and maybe a bit of RAM, actual runtime overhead is very limited. It turns out, storage and RAM are some of the cheapest resources on a machine, and you probably won’t notice the extra storage or RAM usage.
VMs are heavy, Docker containers are very light. You get most of the benefits of a VM with containers, without paying as high of a resource cost.
No because docker is not actually a VM
I’ve had immich running in a VM as a snap distribution for almost a year now and the experience has been leaps and bounds easier than maintaining my own immich docker container. There have been so many breaking changes over the few years I’ve used it that it was just a headache. This snap version has been 100% hands off “it just works”.
Interesting idea (snap over docker).
I wonder, does using snap still give you the benefit of not having to maintain specific versions of 3rd party software?
I don’t know too much about snap (I literally haven’t had to touch my immich setup) but as far as I remember when I set it up that was snap’s whole thing - it maintains and updates itself with minimal administrative oversight.
It’s not. Imagine Immich required library X to be at Y version, but another service on the server requires it to be at Z version. That will be a PitA to maintain, not to mention that getting a service to run at all can be difficult due to a multitude of reasons in which your system is different from the one where it was developed so it might just not work because it makes certain assumptions about where certain stuff will be or what APIs are available.
Docker eliminates all of those issues because it’s a reproducible environment, so if it runs on one system it runs on another. There’s a lot of value in that, and I’m not sure which resource you think is being wasted, but docker is almost seamless without not much overhead, where you won’t feel it even on a raspberry pi zero.
It can be, yes. One of the largest complaints with Docker is that you often end up running the same dependencies a dozen times, because each of your dozen containers uses them. But the trade-off is that you can run a dozen different versions of those dependencies, because each image shipped with the specific version they needed.
Of course, the big issue with running a dozen different versions of dependencies is that it makes security a nightmare. You’re not just tracking exploits for the most recent version of what you have installed. Many images end up shipping with out-of-date dependencies, which can absolutely be a security risk under certain circumstances. In most cases the risk is mitigated by the fact that the services are isolated and don’t really interact with the rest of the computer. But it’s at least something to keep in mind.
Beat me to it.
But why can I “just install a program” on my windows machine or on my phone and it is that easy?
You might notice that your Windows installation is like 30 gigabytes and there is a huge folder somewhere in the system path called WinSXS. Microsoft bends over backwards to provide you with basically all the versions of all the shared libs ever, resulting in a system that can run programs compiled from decades ago just fine.
In Linux-land usually we just recompile all of the software from source. Sometimes it breaks because Glibc changed something. Or sometimes it breaks because (extremely rare) the kernel broke something. Linus considers breaking the userspace API one of the biggest no-nos in kernel development.
Even so, depending on what you’re doing you can have a really old binary run on your Linux computer if the conditions are right. Windows just makes that surface area of “conditions being right” much larger.
As for your phone, all the apps that get built and run for it must target some kind of specific API version (the amount of stuff you’re allowed to do is much more constrained). Android and iOS both basically provide compatibility for that stuff in a similar way that Windows does, but the story is much less chaotic than on Linux and Windows (and even macOS) where your phone app is not allowed to do that much, by comparison.
In Linux-land usually we just recompile all of the software from source
That’s just incorrect. Apart from 3 guys who have no better things to do no one in “Linux-land” does that.
Please don’t call yourself stupid. The common internet slang for that is ELI5 or “explain [it] like I’m 5 [years old]”.
I’ll also try to explain it:
Docker is a way to run a program on your machine, but in a way that the developer of the program can control.
It’s called containerization and the developer can make a package (or container) with an operating system and all the software they need and ship that directly to you.You then need the software docker (or podman, etc.) to run this container.
Another advantage of containerization is that all changes stay inside the container except for directories you explicitly want to add to the container (called volumes).
This way the software can’t destroy your system and you can’t accidentally destroy the software inside the container.It’s basically like a tiny virtual machine running locally.
I know it’s ELI5, but this is a common misconception and will lead you astray. They do not have the same level of isolation, and they have very different purposes.
For example, containers are disposable cattle. You don’t backup containers. You backup volumes and configuration, but not containers.
Containers share the kernel with the host, so your container needs to be compatible with the host (though most dependencies are packaged with images).
For self hosting maybe the difference doesn’t matter much, but there is a difference.
A million times this. A major difference between the way most vms are run and most containers are run is:
VMs write to their own internal disk, containers should be immutable and not be able to write to their internal filesystem
You can have 100 identical containers running and if you are using your filesystem correctly only one copy of that container image is on your hard drive. You have have two nearly identical containers running and then only a small amount of the second container image (another layer) is wasting disk space
Similarly containers and VMs use memory and cpu allocations differently and they run with extremely different security and networking scopes, but that requires even more explanation and is less relevant to self hosting unless you are trying to learn this to eventually get a job in it.
containers should be immutable and not be able to write to their internal filesystem
This doesn’t jive with my understanding. Containers cannot write to the image. The image is immutable. However, a running container can write to its filesystem, but those changes are ephemeral, and will disappear if the container stops.
This is why I said “most containers most of the time should”. It’s a bad practice to write to the inside of the container and a better practice to treat them as immutable. You can go as far as actively preventing them from writing to themselves when you build them or in certain container runtimes, but this is not usually how they work by default.
Also a container that is stopped and restarted will not lose its internal changes in most runtimes. The container needs to be deleted and recreated from the image to do that
It’s a container service. Containers are similar to virtual machines but less separate from the host system. Docker excels in creating reproducible self contained environments for your applications. It’s not the simplest solution out there but once you understand the basics it is a very powerful tool for system reliability.
EDIT: Wow! thanks for all the detailed and super quick replies! I’ve been reading all the comments here and am concluding that (even though I am currently running only one service) it might be interesting to start using Docker to run all (future) services seperately on the server!
This is pretty much what I’ve started doing. Containers have the wonderful benefit that if you don’t like it, you just delete it. If you install on bare metal (at least in Linux) you can end up with a lot of extra packages getting installed and configured that could affect your system in the future. With containers, all those specific extras are bundled together and removed at the same time without having any effect on your base system, so you’re always at your clean OS install.
I will also add an irritation with docker containers as well, if you create something in a container that isn’t kept in a shared volume, it gets destroyed when starting the container again. The container you use keeps the maintainers setup, for instance I do occasional encoding of videos in a handbrake container, I can’t save any profiles I make within that container because it will get wiped next time I restart the container since it’s part of the container, not on any shared volume.
Worst part about docker: insane volume management.
Agreed, I just spent a week (very intermittently) trying to figure out where all my free space had gone, turns out it was a bunch of abandoned docker volumes taking up. I have 32gb on my laptop, so space is at an absolute premium.
I guess I learned my lesson about trying out docker containers on my laptop just to check them out.
Learn Docker even if you have a single app. I do the same with a Minecraft server.
- No dependency issues
- All configuration (storage/network/application management) can be done via a single file (compose file)
- Easy roll-backs possible
- Maintain multiple versions of the app while keeping them separate
- Recreate the server on a different server/machine using only the single configuration file
- Config is standardized so easy to read
You will save a huge amount of time managing your app.
PS: I would like to give a shout out to podman as the rootless version of Docker
Pretty good intro for absolute beginners here…
+1 for Techworld with Nana
This thread:
Jails make docker look like windows 11 with copilot.
Containerized software. The main advantage of this is that every application, or stack of applications, runs in its own ecosystem. You can restart a container whenever without having to reboot your entire system. You can store all data off a container in a volume, so if you hit a snag, you can recreate the container without actually losing any of your configs.
You can also create networks so that apps run in different subnets than other apps.
Very simply put, a docker container is like a mini system that runs on your main system.
Something else I like about docker is docker compose. You can create a container or stack of containers with a single simple YAML file without actually having to install anything yourself. I manage my containers in Portainer.
Docker is a set of tools, that make it easier to work with some features of the Linux kernel. These kernel features allow several degrees of separating different processes from each other. For example, by default each Docker container you run will see its own file system, unable to interact (read: mess) with the original file system on the host or other Docker container. Each Docker container is in the end a single executable with all its dependencies bundled in an archive file, plus some Docker-related metadata.
If ‘but it works on my computer’ was a software service
I’ve never posted on Lemmy before. I tried to ask this question of the greater community but I had to pick a community and didn’t know which one. This shows up as lemmy.world but that wasn’t an option.
Anyway, what I wanted to know is why do people self host? What is the advantage/cost. Sorry if I’m hijacking. Maybe someone could just post a link or something.
It usually comes down to privacy and independence from big tech, but there are a ton of other reasons you might want to do it. Here are some more:
- preservation - no longer have to care if Google kills another service
- cost - over time, Jellyfin could be cheaper than a Netflix sub
- speed - copying data on your network is faster than to the internet
- hobby - DIY is fun for a lot of people
For me, it’s a mix of several of reasons.
Anyway, what I wanted to know is why do people self host?
Wow. That’s a whole separate thread on it’s on. I selfhost a lot of my services because I am a staunch privacy advocate, and I really have a problem with corporations using my data to further bolster their profit margins without giving me due compensation. I also self host because I love to tinker and learn. The learning aspect is something I really get in to. At my age it is good to keep the brain active and so I self host, create bonsai, garden, etc. I’ve always been into technology from the early days of thumbing through Pop Sci and Pop Mech magazines, which evolved into thumbing through Byte mags.
We should probably make a poll thread here, it could be pretty interesting to see everyone’s primary and secondary motivations.
Yeah, 100% a whole separate post on its own. If you ask the same question in a new post, you’ll get more visibility and more answers
As I mentioned, I didn’t really know where to post it. I guess my lemmy-foo isn’t up to snuff. I saw that this appears to be in lemmy.world, but only 10 options came up when I tried to post and none of them really seemed right. Advice?
A little box you can put your app.
If the app does bad, it doesn’t sink your ship. Just throw the box over board and repackage the app.
I’m not sure most people need it, but it could be fun to use a new app inside a container. Also makes updating that needs a restarting without shutting down your other services.
…baby don’t hurt me… No more…
It’s the platform that runs all of your services in containers. This means they are separated from your system.
Also what are other services that might be interesting to self host in The future?
Nextcloud, the Arr stack, your future app, etc etc.
Wow! Thank you all for the civilized responses. This all sounds so great. I am older and I feel like I’ve already seen enough ads for one lifetime and I hate all this fascist tracking crap.
But how does that work? Is it just a network on which you store your stuff in a way that you can download it anywhere or can it do more? I mean, to me that’s just a home network. Hosting sounds like it’s designed for other people to access. Can I put my website on there? If so, how do I go about registering my domain each year. I’m not computer illiterate but this sounds kind of beyond my skill level. I’ll go search Jellyfin, weird name, and see what I can find. Thanks again!
You’re asking a lot of questions at one time and will be better served understanding you’re knocking at the door of a very deep rabbit hole.
That said, I’ll try to give you the basic idea here and anyone who can correct me, please do so! I doubt I’ll get everything correct and will probably forget some stuff lol.
So, self hosting really just means running the services you use on your own machine. There’s some debate about whether hosting on a cloud server - where someone else owns and has physical access to the machine - counts as self hosting. For the sake of education, and because I’m not a fan of gatekeeping, I say it does count.
Anyway, when you’re running a server (a machine, real or virtualized, that is running a program connected to a network that can - usually - be accessed by other machines connected to that network), who and what you share with other machines on your network or other networks, is ultimately up to you.
When using a “hosted” service, which is where another entity manages the server (not just the hardware, but the software and administration too, and is therefore the opposite of self hosting. Think Netflix, as opposed to Jellyfin), your data and everything you do on or with that service on that network belongs to the service provider and network owners. Your “saved” info is stored on their disks in their data center. There are of course exceptions and companies who will offer better infrastructure and privacy options but that’s the gist of non-self-hosted services.
To your specific questions:
But how does that work?
Hopefully the above helps, but this question is pretty open ended lol. Your next few questions are more pointed, so I’ll try to answer them better.
Is it just a network on which you store your stuff in a way that you can download it anywhere or can it do more?
Well, kind of. If you’re hosting on a physical machine that you own, your services will be accessible to any other machine on your home network (unless you segment your network, which is another conversation for another time) and should not, by default, be accessible from the internet. You will need to be at home, on your own network to access anything you host, by default.
As for storage of your data, self hosted services almost always default to local storage. This means, you can save anything you’re doing on the hard-drive of the machine the server is running on. Alternatively if you have a network drive, you can store it on another machine on your network. Some services will allow you to connect to cloud storage (on someone else’s machine somewhere else). The beauty is that you decide where your data lives.
I mean, to me that’s just a home network. Hosting sounds like it’s designed for other people to access. Can I put my website on there?
Like almost anything with computers and networking, the defaults are changeable. You can certainly host a service on the internet for others to access. This usually involves purchasing the rights to a domain name, setting that domain up to link to your private IP address, and forwarding a port on your router so people can connect to your machine. This can be extremely dangerous if you don’t know what you’re doing an isn’t recommended without learning a lot more about network and cyber security.
That said, there are safer ways to connect from afar. Personally, I use a software called Wireguard. This software allows devices I approve (like my phone, or my girlfirend’s laptop) to connect to my network when away from home though what is called an “encrypted tunnel” or a "Virtual Private Network (VPN) ". These can be a pain to set up for the first time if you’re new to the tech and there are easier solutions I’ve heard of but haven’t tried, namely Tailscale, and Netbird, both of which use Wireguard but try to make the administration easier.
You can also look into reverse proxies, and services like cloudflare for accessing things away from home. These involve internet hostng, and security should be considered, like above. Anything that allows remote access will come with unique pros and cons that you’ll need to weigh and sort for yourself.
If so, how do I go about registering my domain each year.
Personally, I use Porkbun.com for cheap domains, but there are tons of different providers. You’ll just have to shop around. To actually use the domain, I’m gonna be linking some resources lower in the post. If I remember correctly, landchad.net was a good resource for learning about configuring a domain but idk. There will be a few links below.
I’m not computer illiterate but this sounds kind of beyond my skill level.
It was beyond my skill level when I started too. It’s been nearly a year now and I have a service that automatically downloads media I want, such as movies, shows, music, and books. It stores them locally on a stack of hard drives, I can access them outside of my house with wireguard as well. Further, I’ve got some smaller services, like a recipe book I share with my girlfriend and soon with friends and family. I’ve also started hosting my own AI, a network wide ad-blocker, a replacement for Google photos, a filesharing server, and some other things that are escaping me right now.
The point is that it’s only a steep hill while you’re at the bottom looking up. Personally, the hike has been more rejuvenating than tiresome, though I admit it takes patience, a bit of effort, and a willingness to learn, try new things, and fail sometimes.
Never sweat the time it takes to accomplish a task. The time will pass either way and at the end of it you can either have accomplished something, or you’ll look back and say, “damn I could’ve been done by now.”
I’ll go search Jellyfin, weird name, and see what I can find. Thanks again!
Also check these out, if you’re diving in:
YouTube:
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Jim’s Garage : https://www.youtube.com/@Jims-Garage
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LearnLinuxTV: https://www.youtube.com/@LearnLinuxTV
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Lawrence Systems: https://www.youtube.com/@LAWRENCESYSTEMS
Guides:
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Mikeroyal: https://github.com/mikeroyal/Self-Hosting-Guide/blob/main/README.md
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Land Chad: https://landchad.net/
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Trash Guides (for automation of downloads for Jellyfin. I’ll leave the morality of how you acquire media for you to decide): https://trash-guides.info/
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Tim Kye blog (useful stuff here, especially if you use proxmox): https://blog.kye.dev/
Tools:
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Proxmox Virtual Environment: https://www.proxmox.com/
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Docker: see this thread lol
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WireGuard: https://www.wireguard.com/
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Awesome Self Hosted: https://awesome-selfhosted.net/
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Selfhost: https://selfh.st/
- Also check their apps page: https://selfh.st/apps
Hopefully this helps someone. Good luck!
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