I did not realize this was a thing until I just switched to AZERTY which… despite being marketed as being “similar” to QWERTY, is still tripping me up
Edit: since this came up twice: I’m switching since I’m relocating to the French-speaking part of the world & I just happened to want to learn the language/culture, so yeah
I’ve always wanted to use DVORAK but just don’t have the time to learn something so large and new (to me) at this stage of life. Gotta pick your battles.
Yeah, I remember being really interested in DVORAK when I was younger. But when it comes down to it, my typing speed is not really something that is holding back my productivity, so there is little benefit to be gained from switching.
Typing speed isn’t the only benefit to switching. Reduced finger and wrist movement have been a life saver for me
Yeah. If people stopped bugging me at work my productivity would 2x for sure.
Meanwhile my 110wpm on QWERTY is not exactly holding me back.
I used Dvorak for a couple months but every time I sat down I had to force myself not to revert to muscle memory. Also, at the time at least, I had to remap they keys in every game I played so they were spread all around the keyboard. Just wasn’t with it.
AZERTY is not really about being similar to QWERTY. It’s the French standard keyboard layout.
Similarly QWERTZ is the German standard keyboard layout.Most (European?) countries use some variation of QWERTY with the symbols and special characters moved around to fit their respective languages better. Over here in the Netherlands we are a bit of an outlier in the sense that we use the US layout of QWERTY, but with additional modifier keys to make special characters available (It’s called US International)
There is also niche layouts like DVORAK (optimized layout for English) and BÉPO (optimized layout for French).
What is the reason you switched to AZERTY, if I may ask? I’m quite curious.
Over here in the Netherlands we are a bit of an outlier in the sense that we use the US layout of QWERTY
Tell that to Microsoft! I remember people using Windows would complain their : turned into ± etc., actually I haven’t heard that in a while now, did they finally fix that or just change the layout switching hotkey to something one doesn’t accidentally press?
I think that finally got fixed several years ago. I do remember this exact problem though…
By default both the Dutch and US International layouts would be enabled if you set up the computer to the Dutch region. And you could switch between them (accidentally) by pressing some key combination. It was highly annoying…
Yeah exactly. The key combo was ctrl+shift btw
What is the reason you switched to AZERTY
Not OP but I would guess he wants full immersion in a new country with a new language. That’s still not a good idea IMHO. AZERTY is no different than QWERTY (except for a few keys) because you still move and distord your fingers all over the place whether you use one language or the other. I switched to the full “Colemak on US ISO keyboard” and my fingers have no problem writing in French too.
I use Dvorak on a 36 key Corne.
I started developing Ulnar Tunnel due to having really bad typing form from never learning the correct way to type. I was never going to unlearn the horrible (but fast) typing form that I had been using for years, so I decided to completely relearn how to type from the ground up using a different key layout on a completely different keyboard layout. It was a long and arduous process, but now my wrist pain is completely gone, and my typing speed has recovered.
I’m French but I’m a programmer. I fully switched to standard Colemak in 6 months. There was no difference between QWERTY and AZERTY to me and I had pain in my wrists. Colemak removed that pain in a few weeks and I still get to keep the standard shortcuts (Ctrl+C/V…) because some keys stay in the same place. It’s annoying sometimes when you’re learning but it’s definitely worth it.
This Heatmap is why I made the switch to colmak-dh.
I think this makes sense for people who type only in English. If you type in other languages, this becomes way less relevant.
Not to mention the limitations in hardware.
I type in other languages as well on Colemak dh, it’s still way better
I type in English, Portuguese and Spanish (mainly in English because code, then Portuguese because I live in Brazil) and I use Dvorak. I don’t use accents or other special characters, but because I’m a “gringo” I get a pass.
Yeah no definitely. This is a heatmap generated off of English words.
However Germanic/latin languages may be similar
Swedish. Of course, these all lack three letters. And I don’t think this tool counts special characters?
QWERTZ like any German. 🤷
Standard US Dvorak, but with the modification of using Caps Lock as Compose key so that I can type øæåØÆÅ when I need to.
I made the switch in 2011, but I never bought into the typing-speed claim. Typing speed be damned, it’s just so much more comfortable this way.
Background:
I grew up with scandinavian keyboard layout in the 90s, but then two things happened almost at the same time:- I fucked up my msdos config, resulting in me having to use the default US layout
- I became interested in coding.
It didn’t take long to notice how much better US layout is once you need access to {, }, and @, so I became familiar with it. For a long time I swapped bac and forth depending on what I was doing. Then one day around the time when Walter White blew up Gustavo Fring it dawned on me out of the blue that qwerty was somewhat cumbersome, and I would most likely be using a keyboard recreationally and professionally for the rest of my life, so I might as well try to see if I could get used to something more comfortable.
Downside: Took me a while to get used to it. 6 months or so. A little more than that and my typing speed was up to what it used to be.
Upsides: More comfortable, Nobody wants to borrow my computer, and shoulder surfers have NFI what my password is based on what I’m typing.Dvorak for over 25 years.
I retrained myself in Dvorak many years back, and really enjoyed using it much better than QWERTY. I had to revert back to qwerty because of commercial standardizations/limitations at different workplaces, unfortunately.
All that to say that workman layout seems even better after reading that article. I don’t really see myself making the effort to switch again, but I enjoyed reading about it. Thanks for sharing.
Small warning about workman. It has issues with lateral movements and single finger n-grams. “ly” and “ct” being notable examples.
A piece of advice I heard that served me well was to look mostly at post covid designs. A lot of work was done on layout optimization around that time and the results show.
My recommendations in no particular order are:
Colemak-DH if you want to focus on a well supported layout.
Graphite or Engram or one of the hands down layouts are modern well optimized layouts I would consider if I was to learn something today.
Some people like MTGAP but in my book it was designed with too much of an emphasis on minimizing key spacing without a strong enough emphasis on how human hands work.
I personally use engram but it only works for me because I have strong pinkies. If you don’t it’s probably a bad choice.
QWERTZ because I’ve been living my whole life in Austria and this was always the default. Every time something is set to QWERTY (and my keyboard is still physically QWERTZ), I have no idea where most of the special characters are and have to mash the keyboard in order to find them. I know @ is shift-2 and / is to the left of the right shift key, but most of the others, uh…
AZERTY Belgian, Flemish style
I use Colemak, but just learned about Colemak-DH in this thread, I might give that a try, as the hjkl keys seem to be better positioned and have been trying to get back to vim.
Programmer dvorak
I also taught myself Colemak and Workman, but I prefer Dvorak
I’ve been slowly, and I mean slowly, trying to pick up steno. I get the occasional moment where I go super quick, but mostly it’s just 1-10wpm at the moment. When I actually want to get stuff done I switch to QWERTY
Moved from AZERTY to QWERTY last year
