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NPR did a segment on how people from different sides of the spectrum tend to see each other in a negative light. I TRY NOT TO man, but someone yesterday told me to my face, “Those mother fuckers should burn”, because his neighbor made a sound complaint about his chickens.
Our city is NEXT TO LA. I’m a farmer, and so is he. I don’t understand his worldview at all. He’s an immigrant, and he’s anti-immigration. His business struggles to compete with larger businesses, but he fears socialism. He brags about freedom of speech and the pursuit of happiness, but he thinks he should be able to control women’s bodies. Also, he said a bunch of people should die in a fire. My sister has cerebral paulsy, and if you don’t know, a lot of people who died in the fire couldn’t run for the same reason. I wanted to spit in his face. I’m a bald, white, male farmer, so people open up to me, thinking they’re in good company. I look like a redneck, and technically, I have one. The shit people say is wild. It tends to darken my world view. I try not to focus on them, though, except in ways I can be kind and slowly sway them, hopefully.
I used to be baffled by people’s behavior in the same way, but recently I’ve come to understand that a lot of people see the world through the lens of power instead of morals, and they want to see themselves as the most powerful. Socialism means they didn’t “earn” their business, and surely they can become the next mogul without it. He doesn’t care about other immigrants because he sees himself as above them.
I’ve come to understand that a lot of people see the world through the lens of power instead of morals, and they want to see themselves as the most powerful.
That’s one of the most concise ways I’ve seen it written out. People think reactionaries are stupid; when they say that, they don’t understand that conservative morality is wholly based on putting themselves higher in the hierarchy than the people they hate.
It’s why they make exceptions for themselves and their loved ones: it’s entirely morally consistent that they deserve the exceptions because of who they are.
There’s always a bigger fish
You sound like a chill guy for what its worth. Sorry your neighbors a dickhead
Ah, this old canard in which radical leftism didn’t do anything wrong, no revolutions lead to dictatorships and centrally planned economies were sabotaged by the capitalist illuminati. God forbid we critique leftist ideologies, anyone who does that is worse than a nazi.
This comic will be a poor fit when people don’t conversationally use horseshoe theory to compare the barely-existent US left (who support improvements that would help all demographics but which are somehow considered radical) to the aggressively hateful US right (who is now pretty sure they will get to see their favorite targets hauled away and deported or imprisoned depending on whether you mean brown people or queer folk).
Also horseshoe theory is the creation of a journalist and no studies support the claim.
Tuol Sleng was actually just a nice leftist resort.
Left or right doesn’t matter… Authoritarianism is the enemy.
I blame the two party system in the US. It squishes all ideologies into a simple binary choice, and this bleeds into the political discourse even outside the US and especially online.
In my country we have a communist party which falls squarely in the conservative camp, wanting to return to the “good old days” before the revolution. It also has more support in the rural areas whereas cities trend more towards economic right.
Left pushes reading and education right pushes illiteracy and blind faith in the leader but m’authoritatianism
There are many examples of the left pushing blind faith in the leader (see Mao, Kim Il Sung, Stalin)
There are many cases of authoritarians claiming labels that so not reflect their actions or goals, yes.
I’m progressive, but we should not deny the failure modes of progressivism
Adopting the names of left leaning styles of government does nothing to change their actual oligarch and kleptocratic styles is leadership, so that does not apply.
Unless we’re to believe that Nazi Germany was somehow just a bunch of misguided socialists…
Soviet Russia wasn’t exactly a model of progressivism though— it was a rigidly hierarchical society with extreme wealth disparity.
Same for the other examples.
The NTS fallacy is about redefining terms to cherry-pick data. Those regimes don’t match any version of ‘progressive’ I’ve ever seen.
There was literally a
slipsplit in the first international. You can’t blame those aligning with the lesser influential side for the things the authoritarians did. “The Left” is a far too broad concept to apply the No True Scotsman fallacy to.Edit: typo
It is an inversion of it, actually. The sugar starts on the porridge, so the trueness of the Scotsman can’t be found.
Stalin wasn’t progressivism, actually the opposite, it was the conservative part of the party, that inspired the other dictators.
It’s a well documented fact that authoritarians utilize leftist terminology as the keystone of their propaganda/branding strategy. The masses, sadly, will always accept charismatic, strongly-worded branding over genuine ideals. There is nothing “no true scottsman” about it.
No child left behind has resulted in every child pushed through the system. My son had a IEP so he couldn’t be failed. So spare me how pro education the left is. They have and are continuing to fail whole generations of kids with their daft notion of education. I see it everyday. The teachers see it and people like me who regularly deal with kids see it. The left can’t see it. The effect is the same and the right are winning by letting the left run the show.
Democrats aren’t left wing
Why can’t you just get along with the nazis like we on the enlightened center do
You’re thinking of the right. That’s what the right does.
Horseshoe theory is truly one of my worst enemies, a thought terminating cliche that is zesty enough to feel like a revelation so every midwit loves to trot it out to feel superior. “Opposite things have similarities, therefore, opposite things tend toward the same”
Where can I get that upside-down blue flag shirt? That’s going to go hard while the police are beating me for having a sign on a sidewalk.
It’s been a conservative symbol for years, try places that sell Trump merch.
Yeah but I don’t want to give the orange man money. :(
I’ve had people on this platform tell me they were excited for, “the fall of empire.” Knowing full well there would be a human cost. So yes, oppression is bad, but if your answer is violence then it’s time to parse which violence is acceptable to you because obviously you’ve already distinguished.
All political positions weigh the violence of their positions. Liberals who fight to maintain the status quo are fighting to keep people from enclosed resources like food and housing, with the justification of the profit motive. Whether or not they’re right, they’re accepting blood for their policy
We’ve established what blood the liberals actively tolerate. I don’t think that’s a question at this point.
I’m going to let you in on a secret: the maintenance of the empire is also violence, and also has a massive human cost.
It’s funny because Lemmygrad/Hexbear are indistinguishable from Gab.ai, and it’s a bunch of liberals on the center who think “free healthcare” is somehow not centrist
Edit; honestly, all you need to do is look at the comments in this thread saying oppression isn’t always bad. Lemmy.world never fails to amuse
First day provided tons of evidence from the lord god being disrespected and completely shat on by trump to literal nazi salutes. That have endless meme potential and can be spread around for completely free and low effort in order to swing public opinion. I am sure returning to some obscure tibetian basket weaving forum with userbase of five and talking about genociding everyone not like you while the right media machine is working overtime is going to get the public to change their mind.
If it were that trivial why was public opinion not swayed earlier? The fact is at least 30-40% actually want Hitler. The rest are OK with Hitler if he actually cuts their taxes or makes them prosperous. If he built gas chambers and broadcast the mass murder of brown folks he would still have at least 30% support. We in the US are factually just garbage people.
To be fair, those sentiments are also espoused on ml. Just saying…
At no point have I ever seen anyone in a political science class mention horseshoe theory except in the process of explaining that it isn’t a scientific concept that has validity and was the creation of a journalist. There is no evidence that backs the horseshoe theory. A former Marxist is not going to have much in common with theocrats, monarchists, or fascists and is unlikely to move from one to the other.
TL;DR: horseshoe theory isn’t taught in poli sci because its bullshit.
If you squint enough, you’re gonna see a normal distribution.
Lol, some leftists need to get over the fact that not everyone will agree with their pov, and that doesn’t mean those who disagree are “center” or “liberal”, whatever the fuck they think those labels mean. I am tired of what feels like emotional blackmail by hardliners who insist that their biased opinions are definitive progressivism, or that they are the arbiters of truth or justice. But continue being wrong, it’s just you losing credibility 🤷♀️ Truth and justice require a principled and unbiased approach towards morality, ethics and philosophy. I believe people can do better than zero-sum realpolitiks, I guess that’s just my naïve take.
/tiredposting
Good Lord you’re arrogant
Your argument is quite compelling, but I’m going to side with the person you’re denigrating on this one. I’m sorry…
I’m just not very far-right… So I can’t fully get into your mindset.
Sorry it came across like that, I was super tired. I think other commenters are right that authoritarianism sucks, whether it’s left or right.
It also sucks when it’s centrist. And guess what, your opinions are not less biased than anyone else, you are no more the arbiters of truth or justice than anyone else, you are no more “principled and unbiased” in you approach towards morality ethics and philosophy than anyone else. Don’t be so goddamn arrogant.
You’re right that no one is an angel or god, no one has perfect knowledge and as such cannot hand out perfect justice. That’s what I am saying, essentially. As soon as people create authoritarian systems, of any kind, they become adherents to one singular way of thinking. That’s the problem.
Edit: stop making the thing into an ad hominem, I am talking about systems and processes.
Yeah, and centrists in the current climate are all supporters of the authoritarian system that is capitalism, and essentially are all adherents to one singular way of thinking.
That’s not what zero-sum means. Implied strawman. Insisting that your own position is the arbiter of unbiased truth and justice without demonstrating it (because obviously).
Lol k.
The worst thing to come out of social media discourse is ad hominem attacks (attacking a person) being perceived as attacking the argument itself. What an annoying take, no one is a god or angel. We have to do the work to find truth and justice.
Wasn’t an ad hominem either, and that certainly wasn’t invented by social media.
What are you doing, fam? Is this satire itself? Please stop co-opting debate club culture, I paid for my right to use these words.
I disagree strongly with this. You simply have no leg to stand on here.
LoL
Tell it to what words mean
Yes, you’re correct. But this isn’t the right platform to expect updoots for saying the correct thing.
This here is Lemmy… Founded by tankies, and unfortunately today tankies seem to be wanting their platform back. The may get it back, at this rate… Which sucks, because so many platforms these days are so insanely far-right.
There isn’t really a home for many of us any longer. It’s genuinely depressing… Just far right, and far left places, where the dumbasses of the world love to yell.
oppression leads to depression
Horseshoe theory posits a wolf in sheeps clothing and a sheep in wolfs clothing are the same thing.
I don’t consider myself a centrist, but I do consider myself between the two parties currently.
I don’t like the “both sides are wrong” mentality often associated with centrists. I don’t think I am inherently better than either side. I think I am disillusioned by both sides.
I was a Leftist/Democrat for the majority of my life. Then at some point ~8-9 years ago saw the pipeline that leads to radicalized righty thinking and said “fuck that” but when I turned around and looked back on my old party critically I also didn’t want to walk back through that door either.
Basically I think both “sides” need to shut up and stop slinging poop at each other. Occasionally you need to listen to the other side. Neither one is always right or always wrong. Some of the moderates from either side can admit this and they hang out in the middle ish with me. But most people just sprint farther to either side when their ideas are challenged.
But since everyone has this “us vs them” mentality over every little thing I don’t see communication or collaboration getting any better going forward.
When has the right been correct about things? Lmao
Rightwingers believe they can and should wield their power to crush their political and business opponents. And if they do this enough times, they’ll accrue immense amounts of wealth and power. They should never surrender, never compromise, and always fight to the bitter end, because a long and painful enough campaign will see liberals surrender and conservatives triumph.
In this, they are proven absolutely correct.
They called the affordability crisis. Notably Hitler was right that the American loans would hurt Germany. Broken clocks are right twice a day and fascist ones make the most of them.
However they do nothing particularly responsible about the indicated fiscal problems. GOP administrations have a track record of spending even more than the democratic administrations, while pulling in less revenue.
So they jump up and down at a credible issue, but have no credibility as they have zero track record of fixing it, just making things even worse.
Oh absolutely. But most people don’t pay attention to that. Until it gets bad enough that they’re angry and desperate.
Happens more often than you may realize. Someone being “correct” on a topic in an objective sense is good, but that doesn’t necessarily outweigh their flaws. Also worth keeping in mind that “left” or “right” ideology can mean very different things in different parts of the world.
An easy example from my own country - our left wing worked hard to shut down functioning nuclear power plants with plenty of time left to run whilst the right wanted to preserve them. Left largely got their way on the issue, and now we’re in an electricity crisis due to a lack of dispatchable capacity.
Think for yourself, consider ideas & statements based on their own merits rather than judging them by who is embracing them at the current moment. A century ago it was the Democratic party pushing jim crow laws in the US and the RNC were championing civil rights.
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Pensions protection act in 2006 encouraged the growth of employer sponsored savings accounts
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Tax cuts and jobs act in 2017 simplified taxes and was welcomed by everyone in both parties
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First step act in 2018 improved prison conditions
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USMCA in 2018 was a functional version of NAFTA
I’m not saying these were perfect (First step act has some issues, for example), but all of these were pushed by Republicans and had demonstrably positive effects. Blindly implying the right never makes good decisions makes you no better than the people you think you’re against.
This is honestly the first time I have ever heard anything positive about USMCA. What exactly do you think it did better?
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The left in the US has gone on record wanting to tax soda because it’s unhealthy.
Do you people have any amount of self awareness?
Do you legitimately believe that anything and everything the right has ever said or done has been wrong?
Most people would say that Hitler was a terrible person (and they would be right), but even the evil as shit Hitler did some Good things in his life even if some people refuse to admit it.
Hitler is credited with pulling Germany out of the post WW1 economic slump. One of the major contributors was his insistence on building the highway/Autobahn. It enabled Germany to expand faster and years before other European countries could catch up
Him and the Nazis were among the first to recognize the health benefits with not smoking and he is credited with pushing Germans to quit smoking but especially pregnant women and kids.
If you want a more recent example:
During Trump’s first Term he made it easier to prosecute financial crimes. The main way he did this was by requiring businesses to report their true owners. No longer would they spend as much time and money digging through shell corporations to figure out who is truly responsible.
If you want a less recent example:
Nixon created the EPA.
Not everything the left does is rainbows and perfection. Not everything the right does is evil and ruins the planet. You need to stop thinking in absolutes and recognize that things are more complicated.
Him and the Nazis were among the first to recognize the health benefits with not smoking and he is credited with pushing Germans to quit smoking but especially pregnant women and kids.
The hazards of smoking had been established as far back as the 17th century. One of America’s Founding Fathers - Benjamin Rush - was on record as a physician documenting and objecting to the proliferation of smoking.
The Nazi cribbing of then-modern health trends against smoking was not a point in their favor. FFS, this was an organization that popularized the consumption of methamphetamines
Nixon created the EPA.
Congress authored the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA), having modeled it after Senator James E. Murray’s Resources and Conservation Act (RCA) of 1959. Nixon organized the EPA under the powers afforded this law. He didn’t draft the legislation from whole cloth but cobbled it out as a compromise with far more eco-friendly Congressmen in an era when industrial pollution was at the worst point in human history.
Even after that, his failures were far more notable than his successes. Nixon failed to curb the popularization of lead in gasoline and paint or asbestos as a building material, despite these substances been notoriously hazardous well before the EPA was formed. He presided over a surge in fossil fuel extraction and consumption, despite the threat of climate change having been established during his tenure.
Even past that, Nixon was - fundamentally - a Liberal Republican. His social and economic views were in line with the liberal establishment of his era. His governance was in line with his predecessors, LBJ and Kennedy and Eisenhower. If he’d been born 50 years later, he’d be right at home in the administration of Gavin Newsom or Kathy Hochul.
Your need to equivocate between left and right in this regard is extraordinarily naive and shortsighted.
Yup, fact is a majority of people in thd US agree on many of the most important issue, yet the governing structure seeks to “otherize” people from each other as much as possible in order to prevent meaningful discourse and foster division.
Can’t have the population working together to take out the elites. They need us good and pissed off at each other so we are too busy to see them taking everything and giving us scraps constantly.
You’re right, you’re not a centrist, because the two major US parties are right wing and far right wing, so being between them is solidly right wing.
Jesus Christ you people are impossible to have any real dialogue with.
You’re tagged as a Rogan listener on my app
You’re not a centrist
I don’t even know what you mean I’ve been tagged as a Rogan listener in your app. I haven’t listened to Rogan regularly since before covid and he lost his damn mind. If someone else is slapping labels on me they got that one fuckin wrong lol.
Also I have said several times im not a centrist. I’m a former Democrat that still leans left on most issues, but I can’t identify with today’s Democrats or the left.
Yeah… you’re a centrist.
Please use my preferred title: “moderate retard”.
Cool. I guess only people to the right and left are valid. The right is bad, and the left is good. The rest? I guess we don’t count…
Gee sounds a little like a far right standpoint… That’s so weird, they never go authoritarian!
I guess only people to the right and left are valid. The right is bad, and the left is good. The rest? I guess we don’t count…
Somehow you seem to have misunderstood both actual horseshoe theory and the comic mockery of it.
psst: the center is the part between the two ends. That’s what makes it the center.
Ah yess," we need to create classless society by eating all the rich, killing all the landlords and destroying capitalism around the world" is totally different from the far right which is also “do violence against people we don’t like in order to get the society we want”. Youre not a faschist if you think the people who you want to kill are responsible for all your issues I guess. Wait, wasn’t that literally what hitler said?
Calling to violence is sure to get all the reforms you want. You could also, idunno, take a page from the rightwingers playbook and viralize memes about every single thing the administration does wrong so the public does not forget and is turned against them.
What a ridiculous position. You honestly believe that all socialists and/or communists want to kill the rich and the landlords?
Or is that just a convenient strawman you’ve created?
Communism commits evil when it goes wrong; fascism commits evil when all goes to plan. No one, not even Stalin, ever became a communist in order to do evil, whereas that’s the whole point in becoming a fascist. - Julie Burchill
No, some of you are reasonable and non violent. Communists are just fucking idiots no matter which way you cut it.
Because see, you are right now excusing stalin for killing up to 20% of a countries population. YOU ARE NORMALIZING GENOCIDE OF A MASS MURDERER
you have no idea what went down and how it wasnt an accident. it was a quota. There is nothing to discuss. Fuck you for normalizing mass murder and making excuses. You are literally no better than a fucking nazi making excuses for hitler.
I’m not a communist or a socialist, nor did I write the quote.
ETA:
After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives was declassified, and researchers were allowed to study it. This contained official records of 799,455 executions (1921–1953),[717][718] around 1.5 to 1.7 million deaths in the Gulag,[719][720][721] some 390,000[722] deaths during the dekulakisation forced resettlement, and up to 400,000 deaths of persons deported during the 1940s,[723] with a total of about 3.3 million officially recorded victims in these categories.[724] According to historian Stephen Wheatcroft, approximately 1 million of these deaths were “purposive” while the rest happened through neglect and irresponsibility.[725] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Death_toll
The population of the USSR in 1924 was ~124m. The population of the USSR in 1952 was ~186m. This gives us a percentage of 2%-1% of the population.
The revolutionary war saw ~1% of the colonies’ population dying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War
There was a 58% population decline from 1800 to 1890 of natives in what is now the United States of America. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
Least deranged anti-communist.
