Edit: It looks like the argument here is that the US is not calling for an instant ceasefire, but instead saying that one is very important to have. China and Russia say it should be immediate. The US also tied it to hostage talks.
Another resolution is in the works to call for an immediate ceasefire, but the US is expected to veto it because they believe it could endanger hostage talks.
So I want to be upfront and say I don’t really agree with their argument, but I do understand it. What Russia and China are saying is by tying the ceasefire to the release of hostages is unfair to the Palestinian side. This is because they lose all leverage and then would be easy targets for Israel who doesn’t seem to mind bombing Palestinian civilians.
My issue is that technically the only reason their bombing is because of the hostages and perhaps if they release the hostages peace talks can begin. The opposite of that argument is it will allow Israel to be even more aggressive after the temporary cease fire is ended.
I don’t know, but that’s the argument.
I think you are confusing formal argument with actual reason. For Russia, there more turmoil is in Middle East, the less attention on Ukrainian war. China real reasons are more nuanced and is a combination of being US antagonist, supporting Russia and having something to distract US from Taiwan issue.
No, I’m only stating their formal argument to the best of my ability to explain it and ignoring speculation. Now, if I WERE to speculate, I’d say what you’re saying is probably closer to the truth. For Russia at least I’m almost 100% certain that’s the reason. China is very different. I’d argue that China’s stance has nothing to do with Russia, USA or Taiwan. There’s this weird myopia when it comes to China and their interests. China’s interests span far greater than those three little pieces of land.
No, for China I’d argue we’d first need to ask who is their audience for this. That answer is the other nations in the middle east. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, etc… China has been trying to formulate a narrative that they are friends to Muslims regardless of the accusations of what they are doing in XinJiang. So, it’s almost certain China’s stance comes from conversations with those nations. So technically they are telling the truth in the sense that their saying what others are telling them. Reality is it’s just to win favor over the oil producing nations so they have stable supplies of energy.
*Edit. Essentially what I think China is saying to the middle eastern world is you have a veto with me, the same way India has with Russia.
Are those Muslim countries you mentioned against the cease-fire proposal?
Well we can only speculate, which is why I said IF I WERE TO SPECULATE. However, Algeria also vetoed, a primarily Muslim nation and Washington is calling them out as representing Arab nations.
So there is evidence towards but I’m not seeing anything definitive. But again, that’s the definition of speculation.
Very much yes. The US’s proposal was actually worse than nothing. There’s a reason Hamas has been demanding a permanent ceasefire before they turn over any more hostages. There’s also a reason Algeria voted no.
Israel’s also an important weapons manufacturer and importer.
If the deal Israel has with the US explodes, China would be more than happy to fill that void. Sell them some more weapons, import some fancy missile tech, etc. Their current stance belies years of cooperation, including weapons deals. Something the US was pressuring them on. (I say current stance, but they just blocked a cease fire, so it may be that they’re already making the pivot).
Not as if they actually give a shit about human rights of Gazans, despite the propaganda.
In international politics morality always comes second to real politik. There are no good guys.
I think y’all are missing the elephant in the room here. This is a resolution that demands Hamas hand over all their hostages for a temporary ceasefire, with no mention of the 3000+ hostages Israel still holds.
My issue is that technically the only reason their bombing is because of the hostages and perhaps if they release the hostages peace talks can begin.
This might work somewhere else, but not with Israel. Hamas isn’t good, but they’re for better or worse one of the organizations with the most experience at negotiating with Israel and getting actual results (small as they may be). And Hamas knows there’s no way in hell Israel would just quietly leave after being handed over all the Palestinian side’s leverage when they’ve been very clear they want to re"settle" Gaza and rule it like (or worse than) they rule the West Bank.
BTW I’m relying on reporting so if anyone can find the whole thing please link it.
I can understand it but treating the hostages as merely bargaining chips ignores that they are innocent civilians caught in this idiotic conflict through no fault of their own. Hamas has no right to use the hostages as a tool to protect themselves.
The real issue with this ceasefire is that linking the ceasefire to the release of the hostages tacitly endorses continued atrocities by IDF if and when the demand for release is ignored.
I can understand it but treating the hostages as merely bargaining chips ignores that they are innocent civilians caught in this idiotic conflict through no fault of their own. Hamas has no right to use the hostages as a tool to protect themselves.
They have the right to use the hostages to protect Gazans. Don’t blame the player, blame the game.
This is a slightly more interesting moral argument but I think in general I would have to disagree. Particularly because it doesn’t seem like the hostages have done much if anything to blunt Israel’s aggression.
They haven’t, but we’re not talking about now. We’re talking about later when this mess dies down. The hostages are likely to make a difference in Gaza’s post-war fate. And given the stakes (Israel has been pretty clear they want to re"settle" Gaza) I’d say while the hostages are victims and deserve better we can’t blame Hamas for holding onto them.
Edit: The hostages are also likely to be involved in things like how much food and other goods Gazans are allowed through the blockade, trying to get Israel to not do random airstrikes and other such things.
technically the only reason their bombing is because of the hostages
That’s not the reason, it’s just the excuse
Do we honestly think any of the hostages are still alive at this point? Gaza has already been reduced to a pile of rubble, and there is widespread starvation in Gaza already. And we know Israel shot three of the hostages a couple months back.
I find it incomprehensible that anyone could justify the holding of innocent hostages.
Agreed, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, including Children, have been taken hostage and tortured by Israels Military Courts
Indeed. israel should release the 3000 hostages of which more than 140 children which they are torturing in their concentration camps.
Indeed they should. Which is why the resolution includes demanding the release of hostages held by Hamas and Israel.
The urging of an “immediate” cease-fire was a shift from a draft Security Council resolution that the United States circulated last month, which had called for a temporary cease-fire “as soon as practicable.”
It’s calling for a temporary ceasefire, similar to the temporary ceasefires Israel has called for. The US has veto’d the last three calling for a permanent ceasefire and release of hostages, similar to how Israel has rejected every permanent ceasefire and hostage release deal Hamas has called for for months.
Israel continues to prioritize the extended bombing and famine in Gaza over getting the hostages released.
Historically ceasfires have been used by Hamas to resupply rockets for the next rocket barrage on Israeli civilians. A ceasfire without hostages being released would be nothing more than a failure on the Israeli side, so would not be accepted.
America posturing by submitting Israel’s demand for a 6 week ceasefire in exchange for all hostages and then continuing their Genocide. Fuck Biden.
Let’s not forget the real story.
The United States had vetoed three previous resolutions demanding a stop to fighting in Gaza, arguing that the measures could disrupt hostage negotiations and staunchly defending Israel’s right to defend itself after the Hamas-led attack of Oct. 7. In each of those earlier Security Council votes, the United States was the only vote against the resolutions. Russia and Britain abstained from the first vote, in October, and Britain abstained from the votes in December and February.
New video by Democracy Now on this facade: https://youtu.be/Ggpc9QHc_vk
Wow. According to the video this isn’t even a security council ceasefire call.
This is just an acknowledgement of the importance of a cease-fire. It’s a giant nothing burger.
Edit: interesting comment from ex UN member Craig Mokhaiber:
A draft that does not demand an immediate ceasefire, but instead suggests one might be negotiated if certain conditions are met, and that genocidal attacks can otherwise continue, is not a ceasefire resolution. It is a ransom note.
You’re correct, it just outlines the importance of one
Maybe they demand permanent instead of “sustained”
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Let’s not assume anyone is in favor of that. Either way the genocide is a genocide and completely wrong. It needs to stop immediately.
Removed, rule 5, if you’re going to disagree, don’t accuse the other user of supporting rape and murder.
I’ve been accused of much worse things on these very pages.
