You can debate the merits of some work, you can debate the amount people are compensated for that work. But what is absolutely not debatable is that we actually need people to do work for us to contribute to function as a society. Some of that work that’s absolutely necessary is both dangerous and nigh impossible to automate. Do we need another Starbucks? No, absolutely not. But we will still need places to be built, and infrastructure maintained. There’s really no escaping that.
Probably someone who sees a causal connection between unpleasant work and pleasant outcomes later.
I mean if work was an end unto itself it doesn’t make much sense to go do things you don’t feel like doing. But once you connect the present moment of facing unpleasantness to the future payoff of the work, it makes more sense.
Most office work for company conglomerate X? Completely useless to society. The whole of Wall Street? Completely useless to society. In fact, most jobs in any field which isn’t STEM R&D are largely superfluous. So, what was your point again?
That’s exactly how it works. That’s why it’s called “universal” basic income. Let’s say we set the UBI to $10k per year, just to make a number up. I know that’s not a living wage, I just want an easy number. If someone has $0 income for the year (because they had to stay at home and take care of their parents), they get $10k. If someone made $500k as a banker, they also get $10k. Now, the banker is going to be paying about $250k in taxes while the carer would pay $0, but they’d both get the same amount of money.
Alaska and some countries do this out of an oil fund. The idea there is that the oil in the ground belongs to the people, who must be compensated for its extraction. I think the Alaska fund is around $3k or something like that. UBI would be the same but funded via taxes on individuals and companies.
If it’s less than you can live on, you’d still need to work and it would supplement your income or pay for a vacation or something. If it’s enough to live on, you could do what you like (including making more money by taking on a job, or go off and paint, or just go fishing or whatever.
Actually that is how one way of rolling it out works.
EVERYONE gets it, which makes administrating the whole deal very easy. No application process, no means testing, nothing. You give it to everyone and tax higher to cover it.
Not really. Basic income is - just that. Basic. It’ll cover your necessities and put a roof over your head, but not much else
Id much rather continue working so that I can afford luxury items (my hobbies are as expensive as they are time consuming). I’d imagine most would feel the same.
Opponents of UBI all seem to have this bizarre notion that most people would be willing to take a big step down lifestyle wise to not have to work, but that doesn’t mesh with how most people treat money.
How many people deliberately underemploy themselves just to have more free time, even if they could easily be making more money? Very few. And I’d wager that most in that category have lucrative enough careers that their “underemployed” is still making most people’s normal income
That really just furthers the point that we need UBI in my mind.
The people who are making today more or less the same as what the UBI would be would have their income doubled overnight. And yeah, some will say fuck it and quit their jobs to just lounge around (though I imagine many will go back, ask anyone whose been out of work for a long time, it gets boring quicker than you might think), but I’d wager most will take that double income and run with it. Twice your takehome would be life changing for just about everybody. Hell, those who continue to work will probably wind up with more than double, because demand for those jobs will go up.
Jobs that are unpleasant or difficult will basically start actually getting paid what they’re worth, because no one will be stuck in a “I have to do this or starve” situation.
And yes, the overall GDP probably will take a hit, because we won’t be working our population to death, but productivity has skyrocketed over the last century, it’s about time we start putting that fact to work for the actual people, instead of using it to extract record profits for the top 1%.
TL;DR - People will still work because working will still mean more money. Some won’t, but that’s fine. If jobs are having a hard time being filled, then employers will simply have to pay more to get them done, or explore ways to automate the parts people don’t want to do
Do we really need them more than doctors, plumbers, teachers, etc. though? While I’m for a UBI, I’m against it being enough to fully live off of for exactly this reason. The world doesn’t need a bunch more popsicle stick art.
UBI is a separate concern from copyright being a dumb way of rewarding intellectual property.
Everyone should get UBI to reduce poverty and houselessness.
And separately, artists should get paid for their work, when it’s valuable, regardless of whether or not UBI is in place.
And sometimes that value is immediately recognized at the time by the masses and can be measured in clicks and streams.
Sometimes it’s only recognized by professional contemporaries and critics in how it influences the industry.
Sometimes it’s not recognized until long after them and their contemporaries are dead.
Given computers and the internet, there is no technical reason that every single individual on the planet couldn’t have access to all digital art at all times.
All of these things can be true, and their sum total makes copyright look like an asinine system for rewarding artists. It’s literally spending billions of dollars and countless countless useless hours in business deals, legal arguments, and software drm and walled gardens, all just to create a system of artificial scarcity, when all of those billions could instead be paying people to do literally anything else, including producing art.
Hell, paying all those lawyers 80k a year to produce shitty art and live a comfortable life would be a better use of societal resources then paying them 280k a year to deprive people of access to it.
The biggest issue with UBI is that it will never work, the math just doesn’t add up.
Where does the money come from? The government only really has one source of money and that is taxes, so to pay UBI it would either need to raise taxes or massive cut on other expanses.
Should a solution be found for 1) and everyone (universal means that everyone will automatically qualify for it, no questions asked) will be paid UBI then the prices for housing, food and all the other basic things will skyrocket because a) of the higher demand and b) because of the higher amount of money in circulation creating inflation.
The higher prices will mean that the amount of UBI money must be raised, which means we are back at 1)
Where does the money come from? The government only really has one source of money and that is taxes, so to pay UBI it would either need to raise taxes or massive cut on other expanses.
Debt is not a reliable money source, in the long run it is a huge money sink with payments and interests.
So yes, the only money source for governments are taxes.
I like the idea of a “Citizen’s Dividend” funded from taxes on pollution, carbon Emmissions, etc. We can throw a wealth tax for billionaires in there too.
Taxes on pollution, carbon emissions etc. would raise the costs of living and would therefore mean that the UBI would need to be higher to accommodate for the higher costs.
Which means that a huge part of these taxes would be payed in proxy by the government.
Rendering it useless as a method to fund the UBI.
The costs for a UBI are just so enormous, and all on the shoulders of the working class, because those are the majority of tax payers.
If you have a million people, old, young, in between, and a working rate of 60% (because the other 40% are too old or too young or can’t/doesn’ t want to work) and pay everyone 1000$ as UBI.
That would mean that a billion dollars has to be payed by 600.000 people, so every working citizen has to pay 1667$ to receive 1000$ in return.
This means that working people don’t get a UBI because they have to pay more then they get.
And those 1667$ taxes would only be for the UBI, meaning that the taxes would be much higher to pay for all the other costs that the state has.
This is a vast oversimplification. A UBI could replace a vast amount of existing welfare programs in a much more efficient way which would have a fraction of the overhead. There are tons of other proposals to fund a UBI such as a negative interest rate. Likely there would be many sources of funding, including money which now goes to existing wasteful welfare spending.
Ok, negativ interest rate sounds interesting and maybe doable.
It is something I have to read more about, I see a few issues but have not enough information yet.
Give artists a basic universal income, and I guarantee every single person on earth will suddenly discover their “inner Picasso” to qualify.
You say that like that would be bad.
Who fights for having people in braindead jobs, working unsafe conditions, Christ almighty. Check please.
You can debate the merits of some work, you can debate the amount people are compensated for that work. But what is absolutely not debatable is that we actually need people to do work for us to contribute to function as a society. Some of that work that’s absolutely necessary is both dangerous and nigh impossible to automate. Do we need another Starbucks? No, absolutely not. But we will still need places to be built, and infrastructure maintained. There’s really no escaping that.
It will still get done.
Who would work at Starbucks if you get a living wage making shitty art ?
Is there even a quota needed in this? Can I make one piece of art a week that takes ten minutes and I get my living wage ?
Why would I work 40 hours dealing with any customer. Why would I work in a field picking crops or at a construction site ?
I’ll join hunter Biden making blow art and getting g paid
Thanks for announcing your single digit IQ on this topic so everyone is aware. Excellent work.
Wow what an insult. Good job
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I dont see any burns. Should I go ask your mom to llay doctor and make sure ?
Citation needed.
As if that’s a worthy goal.
Says the guy who literally advocate the enslavement of the majority of the human race. Where even if your line, my guy?
2 edgy 4 me m8
So your ok if your garbage does not get taken out or if that many less people want to be doctors and nurses?
Probably someone who sees a causal connection between unpleasant work and pleasant outcomes later.
I mean if work was an end unto itself it doesn’t make much sense to go do things you don’t feel like doing. But once you connect the present moment of facing unpleasantness to the future payoff of the work, it makes more sense.
Most office work for company conglomerate X? Completely useless to society. The whole of Wall Street? Completely useless to society. In fact, most jobs in any field which isn’t STEM R&D are largely superfluous. So, what was your point again?
The reason it’s called universal is because everyone gets it.
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That’s called unemployment benefits. Universal Basic Income is universal, like the name says. If it’s not universal, then it’s not universal basic income.
That’s exactly how it works. That’s why it’s called “universal” basic income. Let’s say we set the UBI to $10k per year, just to make a number up. I know that’s not a living wage, I just want an easy number. If someone has $0 income for the year (because they had to stay at home and take care of their parents), they get $10k. If someone made $500k as a banker, they also get $10k. Now, the banker is going to be paying about $250k in taxes while the carer would pay $0, but they’d both get the same amount of money.
Alaska and some countries do this out of an oil fund. The idea there is that the oil in the ground belongs to the people, who must be compensated for its extraction. I think the Alaska fund is around $3k or something like that. UBI would be the same but funded via taxes on individuals and companies.
If it’s less than you can live on, you’d still need to work and it would supplement your income or pay for a vacation or something. If it’s enough to live on, you could do what you like (including making more money by taking on a job, or go off and paint, or just go fishing or whatever.
Actually that is how one way of rolling it out works.
EVERYONE gets it, which makes administrating the whole deal very easy. No application process, no means testing, nothing. You give it to everyone and tax higher to cover it.
Not really. Basic income is - just that. Basic. It’ll cover your necessities and put a roof over your head, but not much else
Id much rather continue working so that I can afford luxury items (my hobbies are as expensive as they are time consuming). I’d imagine most would feel the same.
Opponents of UBI all seem to have this bizarre notion that most people would be willing to take a big step down lifestyle wise to not have to work, but that doesn’t mesh with how most people treat money.
How many people deliberately underemploy themselves just to have more free time, even if they could easily be making more money? Very few. And I’d wager that most in that category have lucrative enough careers that their “underemployed” is still making most people’s normal income
Are you unaware that many people don’t get much for their work beyond a roof over their head?
That really just furthers the point that we need UBI in my mind.
The people who are making today more or less the same as what the UBI would be would have their income doubled overnight. And yeah, some will say fuck it and quit their jobs to just lounge around (though I imagine many will go back, ask anyone whose been out of work for a long time, it gets boring quicker than you might think), but I’d wager most will take that double income and run with it. Twice your takehome would be life changing for just about everybody. Hell, those who continue to work will probably wind up with more than double, because demand for those jobs will go up.
Jobs that are unpleasant or difficult will basically start actually getting paid what they’re worth, because no one will be stuck in a “I have to do this or starve” situation.
And yes, the overall GDP probably will take a hit, because we won’t be working our population to death, but productivity has skyrocketed over the last century, it’s about time we start putting that fact to work for the actual people, instead of using it to extract record profits for the top 1%.
TL;DR - People will still work because working will still mean more money. Some won’t, but that’s fine. If jobs are having a hard time being filled, then employers will simply have to pay more to get them done, or explore ways to automate the parts people don’t want to do
Point being?
You say that like it’s a bad thing. We could use more people who can afford to make art in the world, even if a lot of it would be shitty art.
Do we really need them more than doctors, plumbers, teachers, etc. though? While I’m for a UBI, I’m against it being enough to fully live off of for exactly this reason. The world doesn’t need a bunch more popsicle stick art.
Speak for yourself. I think the world would be a much better place with more popsicle stick art.
Eeh deviant art had that perspective and then got flooded with mspaint fetish porn and became unusable.
Art station on the other hand always blows me away every time I visit the front page. So there’s a limit.
UBI is a separate concern from copyright being a dumb way of rewarding intellectual property.
Everyone should get UBI to reduce poverty and houselessness.
And separately, artists should get paid for their work, when it’s valuable, regardless of whether or not UBI is in place.
And sometimes that value is immediately recognized at the time by the masses and can be measured in clicks and streams.
Sometimes it’s only recognized by professional contemporaries and critics in how it influences the industry.
Sometimes it’s not recognized until long after them and their contemporaries are dead.
Given computers and the internet, there is no technical reason that every single individual on the planet couldn’t have access to all digital art at all times.
All of these things can be true, and their sum total makes copyright look like an asinine system for rewarding artists. It’s literally spending billions of dollars and countless countless useless hours in business deals, legal arguments, and software drm and walled gardens, all just to create a system of artificial scarcity, when all of those billions could instead be paying people to do literally anything else, including producing art.
Hell, paying all those lawyers 80k a year to produce shitty art and live a comfortable life would be a better use of societal resources then paying them 280k a year to deprive people of access to it.
You do realise U in UBI means Universal, they arent suggesting only artists get it
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The biggest issue with UBI is that it will never work, the math just doesn’t add up.
How’s that National Debt looking?
Debt is not a reliable money source, in the long run it is a huge money sink with payments and interests. So yes, the only money source for governments are taxes.
I like the idea of a “Citizen’s Dividend” funded from taxes on pollution, carbon Emmissions, etc. We can throw a wealth tax for billionaires in there too.
Taxes on pollution, carbon emissions etc. would raise the costs of living and would therefore mean that the UBI would need to be higher to accommodate for the higher costs. Which means that a huge part of these taxes would be payed in proxy by the government. Rendering it useless as a method to fund the UBI.
The costs for a UBI are just so enormous, and all on the shoulders of the working class, because those are the majority of tax payers.
If you have a million people, old, young, in between, and a working rate of 60% (because the other 40% are too old or too young or can’t/doesn’ t want to work) and pay everyone 1000$ as UBI. That would mean that a billion dollars has to be payed by 600.000 people, so every working citizen has to pay 1667$ to receive 1000$ in return. This means that working people don’t get a UBI because they have to pay more then they get.
And those 1667$ taxes would only be for the UBI, meaning that the taxes would be much higher to pay for all the other costs that the state has.
This is a vast oversimplification. A UBI could replace a vast amount of existing welfare programs in a much more efficient way which would have a fraction of the overhead. There are tons of other proposals to fund a UBI such as a negative interest rate. Likely there would be many sources of funding, including money which now goes to existing wasteful welfare spending.
Ok, negativ interest rate sounds interesting and maybe doable. It is something I have to read more about, I see a few issues but have not enough information yet.