• Hypx
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    2 years ago

    BEVs are a dead-end technology. It just replaces an unsustainable dependency on fossil fuels with an unsustainable dependency on batteries and battery-related mining.

    In reality, the future will be hydrogen cars, with an outside chance of synfuel/e-fuel cars.

    EDIT: Sorry, but no amount of lying to yourself will make BEVs a viable technology. It is a dead-end and always will be.

    • Zorque
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      242 years ago

      Maybe the future is not relying on any one technology as our only option.

      Nah, that doesn’t make sense at all.

      • Hypx
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        2 years ago

        Agreed. BEVs make sense as short-ranged urban commuter cars. You don’t want a car with a giant, expensive battery. But this is a niche, so you quickly realize that something else must be the answer.

        For a lot of cases, it is either mass transit or e-bikes. But if you must have a car, it must be something that matches the functionality of ICE cars while being zero emissions.

        • Pennomi
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          192 years ago

          Since when is a 300 mile range “short range”? And it only takes a half hour or so at a good charger to regain the majority of that range. Modern electric cars are perfectly reasonable for long distance trips, provided there’s charging infrastructure, of course.

          • Hypx
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            -222 years ago

            To get a long-ranged BEV, you need a giant battery. That means massive repair bills down the road. Only by limiting range to a small number can this be avoided. Saying that BEVs can have 300 miles of range is missing the point. It is just too expensive to get there.

            There is now technology that can let you refuel in 5 minutes, give you 300-400 miles of range, while also being a type of EV. As a result, it no longer matters that BEVs are “good enough.” It is simply not the most practical idea. Something else is flat-out better.

            • Pennomi
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              122 years ago

              Your alternative is not better, because it’s not in mass production. When it’s in production it might be better.

              But there are still a lot of problems to work out with hydrogen fuel, and the infrastructure is extremely expensive and complicated compared to simple charging stations.

              • Hypx
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                2 years ago

                It will be mass produced. The main difference is that there will be much less need for raw materials. So it will be much cheaper.

                There’s very little left to solve for hydrogen cars. It’s mostly outdated bullshit coming from competing industries. The only real problem left is getting it to mass production. Once that happens, hydrogen cars will be as cheap as ICE cars, and hydrogen fuel will be cheaper than gasoline.

                • @Chreutz@lemmy.world
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                  82 years ago

                  You’re completely ignoring the fact that it takes 3 to 5 times as much energy to actually drive a hydrogen car, because of the (in)efficiencies of the hydrogen production, supply and consumption chains.

                  And given that the driving of a car is what consumes the most energy in its lifetime, the much higher efficiency of a BEV ‘pays off’ the higher production costs, both monetarily and ecologically.

                  • Hypx
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                    2 years ago

                    That’s just bullshit from BEV companies. At best, it’s something like 2x. At worse, it will take less energy, because you have waste energy from renewables. Wind and solar farms have a tendency to produce energy all-at-once, and shut down all-at-once too. You need massive amounts of energy storage to solve this. And the cheapest way of doing this is with hydrogen.

                    So as a result, you just get a lot of super-cheap hydrogen that otherwise can’t be used. BEV don’t solve this problem at all, leading to a lot of wasted energy.

                    Finally, fuel cells are also electrochemical systems, just like batteries. The notion that batteries will always be more efficient is just another lie from the BEV companies. In the long-run, this will be a unanimous win from fuel cells, because they will be equally efficient while also been much cheaper.

            • mememuseum
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              52 years ago

              Battery technology will be improved. Look at how much better today’s lithium ion batteries are than the NiCad batteries of the 90s.

              At some point, we’ll develop something that doesn’t wear out for tens of thousands of charge cycles.

              • Hypx
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                -132 years ago

                And fuel cells will also improve. Why not invest in an alternative? At the very least, you have a backup plan.

                Also, fuel cells are electrochemical devices just like batteries. They arguable are batteries. So there’s no reason to not accept fuel cells.

                  • Hypx
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                    -92 years ago

                    They will just end up being a niche idea that won’t solve climate change.

    • @metallic_substance@lemmy.world
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      2 years ago

      Wow man. You have the highest proportional mix of someone being both highly opinionated and highly misinformed that I’ve witnessed in quite a while. Congrats, I guess 🎉

      You’re being eaten alive here because you are confidently wrong about many things and seem to be blind to criticism

      • Hypx
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        -192 years ago

        Because in reality, this thread is filled with brainwashed BEV fanatics. Either they have been fooled by Musk, or they are investors in some BEV company.

        A real problem, if you believe that is going to be a massive distraction to solving climate change.

        Ultimately, if you were in my shoes, you do the same thing. You have to. It is the only morally acceptable thing to do if you believe what I believe.

        • @metallic_substance@lemmy.world
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          2 years ago

          Bud, have you even spent any time around here? I can’t think of a group of people more gleefully critical of Musk. He’s reviled around here

          You say you believe these things, but have shared nothing but flimsy opinion without facts. That’s not reality, that’s faith. It might be a great time to reconsider whose actually brainwashed.

          • Hypx
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            -132 years ago

            I’m sure there’s plenty of Musk haters. But there’s still plenty of people still believing in him. Or still believing in past lies they haven’t realized were lies.

              • Hypx
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                -122 years ago

                Some of you guys are so detached from reality, you can’t even realize that you just propping up some outdated Fascist bullshit that almost no one on the left believes in anymore.

                In case you weren’t aware, even Joe Biden is promoting hydrogen. At some point, you have to make an assessment of whose water you’re really carrying.

                  • Hypx
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                    -112 years ago

                    Ask yourself that. Which echo chamber did you fall into? What Troglodyte hole are you in?

                    Unless you think I just made up the story about Joe Biden promoting hydrogen, then you’re the one that is caught repeating the same story as a Fascist.

        • @Lightsong@lemmy.world
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          22 years ago

          Why do you think we’re brainwashed BEV fanatics? We’re not blind, we just think it’s decent for now. We’re just not hydrogen-brainwashed fanatics like you? What’s wrong with that? I drive a cheap ass honda civic with no hope of affording EV or HV, but I like the idea of BEV over the gas/diesel does that mean I’m brainwashed BEV fanatic? I’d love to see hydrogen-fueled vehicles as viable, but it’s not happening now other than only two models.

          • Hypx
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            02 years ago

            People here are actively rejecting the possibility of an alternative type of EV. For most of them, only the BEV can exist, and anything is reflexively rejected. It’s not the first time they behave like that, so don’t think they are coming from nowhere and are just asking questions. It’s purely an act of defensiveness, likely to defend their car purposes or their investments.

    • arthurpizza
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      162 years ago

      Right now EVs can be charged at home with power they can generate themselves via solar panels. How is going back to a gas station a better and more convenient solution? Also, you think battery tech will never evolve?

      • Hypx
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        -242 years ago

        Because millions of people cannot change at home. They don’t have a garage to charge in.

        Not to mention you will need a “gas station” for long distance driving anyways. Might as well have one infrastructure that serves both purposes.

        In fact, this is how the ICE car won over BEVs in the first place. ICE cars were invented before the gas station, but the gas station allows ICE cars to be ubiquitous and available for everyone. As a result, BEVs died out in the early 1900s.

        You do realize hydrogen technology can also evolve? FCEVs of the future will be better than FCEVs of today. Furthermore, fuel cells are basically batteries anyways. The moment you start talking about metal-air batteries is the moment you admit defeat, because hydrogen fuel cells are basically hydrogen-air batteries.

        • arthurpizza
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          92 years ago

          There are about 44 Hydrogen fueling stations in the USA right now. Every home and parking structure damn near has at least a power outlet.

          Today you can do a cross county road trip with an EV. You can not do that with a Fuel Cell. I don’t see that changing. Batteries are just more convenient.

          • Hypx
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            -152 years ago

            Same could be said of BEVs not that long ago.

            And no, it will never be more convenient than a chemical fuel. Once there are more hydrogen stations, no one will bother with slow recharging.

              • Hypx
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                -132 years ago

                Then why does everyone complain about long recharge times, or long lines at fast charging stations?

                Look, you don’t have to lie to yourself anymore. There’s a technology that can reduce refueling/recharge times to that of a gasoline car. Might as well start talking about the next big idea, not prop up the outdated one.

                • arthurpizza
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                  112 years ago

                  Look, you don’t have to lie to yourself anymore.

                  This is called projection.

                  • Hypx
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                    -112 years ago

                    Wrong. Again, my goal is to solve climate change. You’re making shit up about why this is happening.

                    Like I said, you no longer have to lie to yourself about the limitations of BEV. An FCEV refuels in 5 minutes, solving this problem completely. Unless you think I’m making this up, then you are the one projecting here.

      • @RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works
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        72 years ago

        On a good day… Electrolysis alone is often <60% efficient, but as someone else pointed out, you do have the advantage of ToU flexibility for minimizing costs.

      • Uranium3006
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        22 years ago

        Round trip, although you can make and store it with excess solar you were just gonna throw away

      • Hypx
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        2 years ago

        Not really, because fuel cells are electrochemical systems just like batteries. In the long-run, it will be the same level of efficiency as batteries.

        What you mean to say is that at a certain level of technology, it is 50% efficient. But even that is meaningless, because hydrogen’s ability to capture excess wind and solar energy let’s it be extremely cheap energy. It is the same story as photovoltaic cells. Photovoltaic cells are very inefficient, but it is irrelevant because it captures such a cheap energy source. So solar power is very cheap. Likewise, green hydrogen, made from water and extremely cheap renewable energy, will also be extremely cheap. Efficiency isn’t that big of a deal here either.

        Ultimately, the people who criticize hydrogen are doing the same thing as those that attacked solar power. It is just missing the forest for the trees, and they are basically guaranteed to be wrong.

        • @RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works
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          132 years ago

          Ultimately, the people who criticize hydrogen are doing the same thing as those that attacked solar power. It is just missing the forest for the trees, and they are basically guaranteed to be wrong.

          Can’t speak for everyone but my criticism of hydrogen is not on its theoretical potential to displace fossil fuels as an energy carrier, but on its practical constraints today.

          I don’t see many people criticizing hydrogen like those who “attacked solar” but people more treating it like fusion - it’s very likely the way of the future, but we shouldn’t stand around waiting for that future to materialize when we can be making changes now that will help preserve our collective future.

          Additionally, your theoretical ultra-efficient-platinum-free-corrosion-resistant-fuel-cell-and-electrolyzer future is competing against the theoretical super-energy-dense-durable-low-cost-solid-state-battery future, and I shook my Magic 8 ball asking which is more likely and all I got was “Ask again later” so… ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

          • Hypx
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            2 years ago

            The “practical constraints” are mostly just lies from competing industries. Case in point, a hydrogen tank is both volumetrically and gravimetrically denser than batteries. Loosely speaking, it is about 2000 Wh/kg and 1333 Wh/L. That’s better than any li-ion battery.

            It is plenty good enough to replace both BEVs and ICE cars. As long as it is zero emissions, it works.

            Finally, FCEVs exist right now. Hypothetical magical batteries of the future don’t. So this is a meaningless comparison.

            • @RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works
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              92 years ago

              mostly just lies from competing industries

              My Master’s Thesis and PhD Dissertation were focused on fuel cells as an energy storage system of the future - I’ve got more first hand experience than most with no influence “from competing industries”. I want this technology to work - badly.

              That said, you’re right that fuel cell cars exist today, but so do batteries, and with today’s technology any “meaningful comparison” will quickly point out that today’s batteries are:

              More efficient, cheaper to manufacturer, much cheaper to operate (have you checked the price per kg for (mostly fossil-produced) hydrogen recently? YIKES!), more user friendly for most (not all) drivers, and (a little more subjective) way more fun to drive.

              Yes, batteries do have their problems (long haul & heavy duty applications, refueling time, cobalt sourcing, flammability, …) But so do PEMFCs (fuel cost, platinum sourcing, reliability & safety of ultra high pressure fueling infrastructure, fuel cost, complete lack of availability for green hydrogen, fuel cost, relatively rapid chemical degradation of electolyzers through catalyst poisoning, forever chemicals involved in the production use and disposal of Teflon/Nafion, …)

              Again, I WANT fuel cells to win this contest, but today? They’ve got a lot of catching up to do before they overtake the leader, and unlike batteries, in their current state I could not in good conscience recommend purchasing an FCEV to anyone I care about.

              • Hypx
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                -172 years ago

                I have two things to point out: I don’t have to believe you on your claims of expertise. And the second is that I can easily accuse you of being decades out of date on your knowledge.

                None of what you said is true anymore. FCEVs are a mature technology, and will cost very little to build. Green hydrogen is plunging in cost, and will be one of the cheapest energy sources out there. None of you claims about “catalyst poisoning” is true anymore.

                So what you are doing is basically being one of those “experts” who attack a revolutionary new technology just as it is taking off. It mirrors solar skeptic just before solar power took off. All your doing is setting yourself up for total embarrassment.

                  • Hypx
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                    -82 years ago

                    You’re just like some of the others here: Stuck in 2015 and accusing everyone else of being paid by the oil companies.

                    Literally no one on the left support these kinds of fanatical anti-hydrogen positions anymore. Just this one Fascist is left. And just a bunch of conspiracy theories as the basis of reasoning. Not even a single coherent counterargument…

                • @Nudding@lemmy.world
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                  42 years ago

                  don’t have to believe you on your claims of expertise.

                  I’m glad you finally understand. That being said, the quality of the content of the other guys comment, compared to your 30 comments, really should be an eye opener to you.

                  • Hypx
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                    -62 years ago

                    He’s knows nothing. He’s just name dropping debunked ideas.

    • @Floey@lemm.ee
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      82 years ago

      It’s easier for people to imagine an alternative to capitalism than an alternative to cars.

    • regulatorg
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      42 years ago

      I hope hydrogen succeeds myself but my friend pointed out a hydrogen engine will still need an oil change.

      In the EV space they have sodium batteries now which don’t use rare minerals?

      • @stealthnerd@lemmy.world
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        22 years ago

        He’s actually right about this one despite the down votes. Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are electric vehicles that use elective motors not engines so there are no oil changes.

        The difference is that a fuel cell vehicle captures electrons during the reaction that takes place when hydrogen is exposed to oxygen (they bond to from H2O) rather than storing energy in batteries.

        So battery electric vehicles store their energy in a battery while fuel cell electric vehicles store it in the form of hydrogen but ultimately electricity is was powers both of them.

      • Hypx
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        -172 years ago

        A fuel cell will never need an oil change. Your friend must be talking about hydrogen combustion engines. Another possibility, but probably something of a niche product.

        Sodium-ion batteries haven’t been invented yet. Just a lot of PR but no products yet. And it will have lower energy density than li-ion batteries, so it won’t be a particularly desirable product anyways.

        • @jose1324@lemmy.world
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          12 years ago

          Bro there is literally already a car driving around with sodium batteries FOR YEARS. I even talked to a company last week that already has Sodium grid batteries. DELIVERED AND WORKING

    • Franklin
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      2 years ago

      Close but the problem is personal transit, we just need to actually build public transit and then it’s a non issue as by the nature of public transit you drastically reduce your dependence on both