See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
A child being collaterally hit in an air strike or as part of an ongoing military campaign is not at all equivalent to beheading babies because you want to exterminate Jews.
Both are bad, in the way that stepping on a rusty nail and being hit by a train are both bad, and they are similarly not equivalent.
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
As her mother is calling for news about her I’ll go with her belief of “not dead” until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - “figurehead” for propaganda. I confess I’m one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly “kidnapped” rather than dead.
I’m glad you’re beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That’s exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those “other” humans most of whom are blamed by association.
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
No, the reason it’s not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you’ll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they’ve both done barbaric things.
I don’t support either “side” in this.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren’t arguing in good faith, you’ve only come here to spew bullshit.
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
A foreign military occupation of an entire region in the Middle East to ensure peace.
Does anyone remember how this one goes?
I’ll take standing under a mission accomplished banner on an aircraft carrier for $200.
Absolutely agree. The two sides need to be separated and put in time out.
However disarming Israel is politically impossible when they’re a cyber weapons super power.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
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That doesn’t mean ignoring them is the correct answer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! …oh, you’re serious.
I mean they can also just keep bombing and torturing each other for the next 100 years, it’s been working so well so far.
Sadly, as history shows, humans actually keep doing just about that.
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You think their neighbors are going to attack a multinational UN taskforce? I don’t think you have the right to call anyone ignorant honestly.
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Ofcourse Iran cares about the UN. You think they don’t know what will happen if they blow up a few German or American peacekeepers?
You think Bibi’s policy of concentration camps and mass bombing is going to improve things? It’s worked so well so far.
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
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Love how there’s no call for responsibility when it’s Israel committing the atrocities. Here’s just some examples out of thousands:
A child being collaterally hit in an air strike or as part of an ongoing military campaign is not at all equivalent to beheading babies because you want to exterminate Jews.
Both are bad, in the way that stepping on a rusty nail and being hit by a train are both bad, and they are similarly not equivalent.
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Because that’s what I said. It’s like you can’t even try to act in good faith.
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
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Two points:
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
The only reason it’s not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
No, the reason it’s not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you’ll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they’ve both done barbaric things.
I don’t support either “side” in this.
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren’t arguing in good faith, you’ve only come here to spew bullshit.
rephrased…“Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who”. Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.