Please start with banning crosses as wall decoration in bavarian public authorities
That’s how I know this law will absolutely be used to target specific religions unless the fundamentalist Christians take it too far.
Would be too funny to see Markus Söder’s face if this would actually happen. “DeClInE oF tHe OcCiDeNt” or something like that.
I mean he did argue that they aren’t a religious symbol before. He later contradicted himself and said that they are but I would not be surprised if he made that stupid argument again.
Lol no, they’ll take Quebec’s lead and claim that those symbols are part of their “unique cultural heritage” and therefore exempt
Wonder how they’ll cope here in rural Austria.
Banning american propaganda from european society?
How about crosses in public institutions? Asking for a (bavarian) friend.
Yes please ban those too
Ah, so France
Technically forbidden by law. However, say, a crucifix on a necklace, hidden under clothes, is in kind of a gray area. Also some exceptions apply to Alsace I think
In Italy I was a member of UAAR (The Union of Rationalist Atheists and Agnostics) and we supported the legal costs of people battling against crucifixes in the workplace, compulsory prayers and even acoustic pollution caused by the church bells. This was in the late '90s to early '00s.
acoustic pollution caused by the church bells.
I really, really wish religious people would finally switch to clocks and phone notifications for their niche events like everyone else. Many people also have an odd romantic notion of this noise pollution. Sort of like the idiots who think loud motorbikes or sports cars make them look cool.
I guess it’s cus everyone has a different standard of what pollution is for them. For me, the sound of windchimes calm me, I find industrial air vents relaxing, and church bells oddly peaceful, but can’t stand someone even driving near me, dogs barking, babies crying, or fluorecent lights flickering. But you know, people need to drive, dogs and babies need to talk, and the world goes on.
I think it has more value than lets say cars and trucks, loud parties and fireworks.
Church, and mosque, not as religious symbols but as a community centers reminds lonely isolated people that they can go now and they will find people there to chat a little bit with.
Phones for older generation doesn’t work and annoying as well.
Good, fuck religion. The earlier we get rid of that shit, the earlier we can unify as a species.
That will never happen. If religion is erased from the equation, ideology or culture will take it’s place and cause friction
Religion is ideology and culture that has caused friction for many years now. Thats the whole point of removing it.
Please explain how banning religious symbols is getting rid of religion.
It’s not, but it’s a step towards that. By removing the religious symbols you make people think about it less, even just subconsciously.
If that was the case we wouldn’t have christians running around nowadays. Mainly cultures and empires throughout history have tried to ban some form of religious symbology, but it doesn’t ever work, and typically just makes the conflict worse.
Well, Christianity is in a swift decline outside of places where they do have enough power left to enforce social conformity. By my estimate in another 50 years Christianity will be a small niche in many countries along with the other major religions in the global North (is that a thing, basically western doesn’t work because of South America).
Right, but that’s more from people recognizing the internal contradictions within the religion. Not because we don’t have as much iconography around as op suggested.
I think you are right, it mostly has to do with education and access to knowledge. Just about every human today has access to all of the world’s knowledge through the internet. It makes it pretty difficult to avoid seeing those contradictions, even if you actively try to.
Honestly, I think it is mostly that the majority of people don’t care (and never did) and the people who do care lost the ability to push everyone who doesn’t care into it with social pressure.
Which is his point. Christianity is on the decline because society has let those people assimilate on their own. They did not ban Christianity.
Once you start banning or suppressing an ideology, the people will actually strengthen their beliefs because they have no way to assimilate with their beliefs into a society anymore.
You should study up on religion and Christianity, we banned plenty of their bullshit practices. The reason Christianity is mostly mild and meek now is because we’ve had to push it back into a corner. It had to get rid of most of its archaic customs to survive.
Islam needs to be beaten just the same way. Making women second class citizens and forcing them to wear beekeeper suits while the man gets to run around in shorts and flip flops is demeaning and unacceptable.
You should study up on religion and Christianity, we banned plenty of their bullshit practices. The reason Christianity is mostly mild and meek now is because we’ve had to push it back into a corner. It had to get rid of most of its archaic customs to survive.
This is a highly reductive and a backwards way to view the cause and effect of history.
Who is “we”, what era are you talking about, what archaic customs are you talking about? You are speaking about vague generalities and then making claims based on them.
Human progress does not advance because individual governments ban certain types of behavior. It’s a byproduct of changes in economics, and government systems. The attitudes and behavior of the church towards its populations was more influenced by technological changes and environment than any sort of government asserting its control.
Islam needs to be beaten just the same way. Making women second class citizens and forcing them to wear beekeeper suits while the man gets to run around in shorts and flip flops is demeaning and unacceptable.
No one is claiming that religion isnt problematic, were just saying that banning iconography or ideologies isn’t going to be effective at doing anything but stiring up sectarian violence.
By forcing Islamic women to wear bikinis and mini-skirts?
If you are against females wearing clothes because you must to see their naked bodies who is the oppressor and who is the oppressed? You are claiming to be in favor of female rights by RESTRICTING female rights to wear their desired clothes? And then claiming all women who don’t adhere to your ideology are forced to wear those clothes?
Do all western women also wear clothes because society forces them to do so? Should we just ban all clothes to show how much we care about female rights?
Many people see the France as an oppressive society that degrades women and treats them as second class citizens when they force women to remove their headscarves and dresses.
But they don’t do that. They don’t leave religion with their beliefs. If anything the vast majority still in the religion on paper doesn’t even have those beliefs any more.
No one is suggesting the perscution of anything. And the ban is just for public places. If people want to adore whatever mythical creature, they can do it a home, but that mythical creature dont get to dictate how others should act.
No one is suggesting the perscution of anything. And the ban is just for public places. If people want to adore whatever mythical creature, they can do it a home, but that mythical creature dont get to dictate how others should act.
“No one is suggesting the persecution of anything. And the ban is just for public places. If a man wants to adore another man, they can do it at home, but those homosexuals dont get to dictate how others should act.”
You see how problematic this can get with just a few words swapped? It’s almost like it’s difficult to police other people’s beliefs, and once you do it kinda leaves the door open for others people with other beliefs to do the same…
it’s not a ban or persecution though, if anything it’s a protection for everyone and mainly the separation of state and church, you are allowed to do your religion but not in the government buildings
If you define schools and other essential public facilities as “government buildings” you are not separating the state from the church, you are separating the civilians from the church.
anything it’s a protection for everyone and mainly the separation of state and church, you are allowed to do your religion but not in the government buildings
You do realize that banning a religion is the state inserting itself into religion, right?
The separation of church and state goes both ways. The church is not to influence the state and the state is not to influence the church. You are allowed to practice religious expression in a state building, but the state cannot demand that you do so, or regulate which religion you express.
Except wars were waged for political reasons, not religious ones(, some civil wars excepted).
And good actions were quite often done for religious reasons, which is why rejecting religions was(is) seen as rejecting the call for virtue, and to God.
You can have technologies or not, be in a communist/royalist/democrat/‘(“anarcho”-)capitalist’/republican/… state or not, it’s not enough to live in paradise, you’ll still find assholes, an environment including religions will( also) be made to improve ourselves. Not saying it didn’t failed there as well, since people in the past weren’t always “christians”, it only means it isn’t enough by itself for 100% of the population, not that it isn’t the way forward.
Downvote me all you want, i.d.c., but argue before doing so if you ever have time to learn by a mutual debate.
here is my argument, most of my friends are some flavor of christian, and christening’s are happening to their kids, if I suggested to them that their kids should be brought up rhe islam way, taught about it from the start etc, they would think I am trying to brainwash their kids, but ofc doing the same with Christianity is not brainwashing, it’s normal. as someone who was completely isolated from religious brainwashing I don’t think someone like you who I assume wasn’t can ever comprehend how fucked up religion looks from the outside, no different from any other cult.
Funny because i don’t think you understand my point of view either, especially if you’re equating all christians with literalists, if you read the Bible you’ll be forced to interpret it allegorically, which is why being raised in a nonreligious environment doesn’t prevent from having misconceptions either.
But sincere thanks for your polite answer though.
can they ban you for wearing a necklace with a cross? or a scarf around your head? This is madness, what bad does it do to other people, this is like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
This isn’t about banning people from wearing their religious merchandise in public. This is banning religious objects from workplaces. More precisely just public workplaces. Of course a secular state should also have secular workplaces. And the way labour rights are personal life can be completely banned from your workplace. Why would religion be treated differently?
Is that the workplace you want? Devoid of personal lives but mere drones who congregate to labour and then disperse into their personal lives where finally they are free to express themselves how they want?
If your personal life is 100% religion, you’re a drone anyway.
The ol strawman
No I want democratic workplaces. But also workplaces without religion nonetheless.
I think it gets pretty hypocritical, singling out religion like that. In the workplace, I can have memorabilia of my favorite sports team even though someone else hates it (unless perhaps it’s a Catholic School team that has a cross in its logo?). I can have the flag of a hostile foreign country because I’m proud of my heritige. I can have a picture of me kissing my wife even though it would normally be just outside the common no-tolerance Harassment policy. Unless it was taken at the wedding, or in/near a religious monument. I can wear gauge earrings, or just a little star… as long as it’s not a Star of David. Ditto with pendants, even new-agey wooowooo pendants, as long as it’s not a pentagram. There’s no path there that isn’t hypocritical.
Freedom of religion and freedom from religion go hand-in-hand, and it’s not always an easy relationship to figure out. Forced private secularism is its own anti-freedom problem, even when discussing the employee at a government workplace. It’s not really secular if I’m forbidden from wearing something for solely religious reasons. Even if the religious reason is that the thing I want to wear is religious.
I’d say there is a difference between politics and regular hobbies at the workplace. Religion is a very political issue, one about your worldview and beliefs.
From a political point of view, irreligion is religion. Telling every single person who works at a location how they are or aren’t allowed to peacably express their religious views or lack thereof is a religious action by government. By definition, not secularism.
It’s ok (-ish) to actively seek an atheist state, but it’s duplicitous to do it under the guise of secularism. The separation of Church and government (secularism) most accurately means that government “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting its free exercise”. I hate to go all “Murica”, but the concept is secularism is often tied to that prior quote. How is telling people they can’t wear a cross or pentacle or anything in between anything but “prohibiting its free exercise”?
Is that a trick question? Because my answer is a resounding yes.
like banning lgbtq people from kissing outside cause it makes others uncomfortable.
We’re talking about bans in workplaces here. And I think that your example is fitting. If a workplace can ban people kissing (or wearing a pyjama then it should be allowed to ban religion affiliated clothing as well. That sad, I do be live that in most cases employers shouldn’t be allowed to ban these things. If you end up working with your boyfriend and occasionally share a short kiss, that’s not going to affect your work and if you’re able to do your job in your PJs, then you should be allowed to do so.
Shit tier take, with no nuance and a dashing of embedded prejudice.
what bad does it do to other people
Religion is a cancer, the quicker we kill it, the better society will be. In other words, religion does a lot of bad by being propagated.
Shit tier take, with no nuance and a dashing of embedded prejudice.
Religion is a cancer, the quicker we kill it, the better society will be.
Bruuh. I am not saying you are wrong, but you are criticizising what you are doing yourself by a much stronger margin.
The title is false, it’s only a judgment in court on whether member states should be allowed to ban such visible signs for public servants or should be deprived of that right.
Yeah, it’s one less freedom for the citizens(, and more freedom for the member states), but as someone (still )living in France it’s probably for our security or whatever(, this says it’s our guarantee for freedom).
It’s not worse than when they killed the Church, religion is too important and now it’s gone, and our lives ~solely guided by/for virtue/‘(the city of )God’ with it, they can ban all religions now for all i care, religion’s places aren’t for the private lives only, it shine’s/d’ mostly when it’s the main pillar of our state. What is supposed to guide us when it’s gone, the “realism” of a selfish quest for power ? No consequences for sinning if you’re not caught(, since morality is relative/inexistant) ? Looking at “our” feet, satisfied, instead of the humiliating highness of the skies/Sky ?
What is religion if not realising we’ll never be enough because our eyes ‘look at’/‘are searching for’ Perfection/Maximum ? We killed our link with God and replaced it with idols, our downfall was announced and our decadence has been visible in the last centuries, poets were the first to disappear, we’re so decadent that we don’t even realize that people from the past wrote hundreds of time better than us, the scientific explosion was already unstoppable before the XVIIIth century, it isn’t linked in any way to our destruction of the benevolent Church.
It’ll just be one more deserved downfall after all, i wouldn’t cry over it if we didn’t try to bring others down with us, the sooner we disappear the better, we’ve long assumed our dishonesty in the name of “realism” or whatever, we’re not christians, nor are we even trying to be, it’s for irrealist goody-two-shoes, not for serious people, and i’m fed up currently, there are still a vast majority of good people but i’m angry, hopefully it’ll pass like all things, are we even trying to build a better world ? What’s our plan/vision ? What am i supposed to support here, capitalist “democracy” with depoliticized citizens and owned private medias, what else ? The “rule of law” that changes according to whoever obtained power/wealth ? What else, our innemurable murderous ventures in every single non-western country in the last 100 years, and irrecoverable cultural annihilation through colonisation before that ? Our propaganda against “unfree” “regimes” needing to be liberated ? What am i supposed to support if we’re not even aiming&acting for a better world for all ? It doesn’t seem like we’re trying, just a nationalistic “America/France/… first” all around, short-term visions and widespread fear&hate, not any ounce of love towards our designated enemies, no plan for living in a mutual peace, what makes us on the right side if not our pitiful/disdainful lies against our so-called enemies ? If we(sterners) don’t support humanity then why would i support us ? Our duty is to make a better world for all, not for our group, neo-colonialism is a shame, and we’re lying about it like with so many other things, it’s not clever to lie we’re so despicable, we should help each other, for real, we should f*cking change, now. If not our downfall is to be hoped for, and the rest of humanity should cheer for it if it means the advent of a better world for all of us.
In Spain religious symbols in public workplaces, official places and buildings are banned since years. You will see them only in religios buildings and churches, maybe in some old monuments.
If I can’t judge women by their cover, I’m gonna need them all to get naked.
So are headscarves for non-religious women going to be banned too? What about other modest clothing?
It’s stupid. I agree.
If an Islam woman not in hijab starts wearing headscarves everyday just as a fashion anyway, theoretically it’s not a religious whatever. So what’s the point those far right idiots are making.
I would love so much to see headscarves and hair wraps become a trend just to fuck with this law.
How could I tell apart an islamic and an atheist headscarf? My mother often wore one in the 1960s and 70s, as was the fashion back then.
I mean, it’s more about code of vestment. Let’s say the code of certain workplace say that you have to have your face fully visible, you can’t wear anything that obstructs your face, if religious symbols were allowed you can justify yourself with “religious obligation”, the “atheist headscarf” was banned from the start
Headscarves don’t obstruct the face they only cover the hair and the neck. Virtually no type of work is obstructed by this.
Let’s take it this to the extreme; if a workplace starts demanding everyone to work in a bikini would this be acceptable?
if a workplace starts demanding everyone to work in a bikini would this be acceptable?
If the workplace is a bikini modelling agency or a beach bar probably yes. Most of those are not run by governments though.
France recently banned the Abaya from schools which is just a long dress.
If only short dresses are allowed in schools because “we need to ban religion” then following this exact logic they could just ban all dresses next.
Following that just make all girls go to school in bikinis because “religious people wear clothes”.
In Africa there’s tribes with women who aren’t even wearing anything on their chest because that’s where those women believe the line should be. From a secular point of view would you also accept it if teenage girls started going to school without clothes?
It is dishonest to claim the Abaya is “just a long dress” or the headscarf is just an accessory. Maybe it can be worn someday in the future like that. But right now it is a religious symbol and people wear it because of specific cultural and religious beliefs. It’s that what the law is targeting.
And maybe also in the future people can go naked wherever they like. But right now, we are not there yet but we already understand that it is not right to indoctrinate people into believing women have to go to great lengths to hide their bodies and if they don’t do that they are less “chaste”.
Ah the slippery slope boogaloo. The laziest and most useless of arguments.
There is no slippery slope. We are talking about clothes and your completely arbitrary interpretation of what is right and wrong. For which you do not seem to hold any logical moral consistency other than RELIGION BADDDDD
Get a picture and ask enough people to get a statistically significant result. The meaning of a symbols is defined by what people think it means and of course that can change with place and time. Hence in Europe the headscarf would be religious now but not back then.
What defines public work place? If the church get tax breaks for being non-profit aren’t they consider public?
no
I mean the answer is really not that complicated. If the checks are being paid by the government then it’s a public work place. It’s a pretty clearly defined thing.
Might be interesting with the hospitals run by the church but paid for 95% by the state here in Germany. Those have ridiculous religious exceptions to anti-discrimination law already.
Religious symbols where they belong, in churches, temples and religious institutions, in public places, administrations, public libraries, schools and universities have absolutely nothing to do with, there they can result in offense or discrimination for people of another or no faith. Sad politicians making an oath on the Bible (in Spain they do it on the constitution, without additions like “with the help of God”). Religion is a true social backwardness, the proof is theocracies, there are none in the world where basic human rights are respected and where social progress is possible.
I’ll have a triple large double popcorn while Italy get this…
From the article:
Conclusion In the light of the foregoing considerations, I propose that the Court answer as follows the questions referred for a preliminary ruling by the tribunal du travail de Liège (Labour Court, Liège, Belgium):
(1) Article 2(2)(a) of Council Directive 2000/78/EC of 27 November 2000 establishing a general framework for equal treatment in employment and occupation must be interpreted to mean that a provision of a public body’s terms of employment which prohibits employees from wearing any visible sign of political, philosophical or religious belief in the workplace, with the aim of putting in place an entirely neutral administrative environment, does not constitute, with regard to employees who intend to exercise their freedom of religion and conscience through the visible wearing of a sign or an item of clothing with religious connotations, direct discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief, for the purposes of that directive, provided that that provision is applied
(2) Article 2(2)(b) of Directive 2000/78 must be interpreted to mean that a difference of treatment indirectly based on religion or belief arising from a provision of a public body’s terms of employment which prohibits employees from wearing any visible sign of political, philosophical or religious belief in the workplace may be justified by that body’s desire to put in place an entirely neutral administrative environment, provided, first, that that desire responds to a genuine need on the part of that body, which it is for that body to demonstrate; second, that that difference of treatment is appropriate for the purpose of ensuring that that desire is properly realised; and, third, that that prohibition is limited to what is strictly necessary.
deleted by creator
Religion is so 00 B.C. Oldschool, but also it gives some poor people hope some times.
Gambling gives hope.
As does cocaine.
I wouldn’t say it gives them hope, I would say it preys on poor and otherwise desperate people and makes their lives worse, often for the benefit of the ones higher up in the religious organizations but even where those truly believe too it often leads poor people to bad decision making.
Ooooo, a fellow Year 0 enthusiast! Hail Satan, brother.
What about fashion choices?
