The French National Assembly on Thursday unanimously adopted a bill aimed at restricting the manufacture and sale of products containing per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances — also known as PFAS or “forever chemicals.” The MPs, backed by the government, voted to exclude kitchen utensils from the scope of the text.
Thanks to an intense lobbying push, manufacturers of frying pans and saucepans — including the SEB group, which owns Tefal — are exempt from this ban under the proposed law penned by French Green MPs.
Majority groups initially tried to delay the ban on kitchen utensils until 2030 — a timetable refused by the French Green MPs who instead suggested an exemption until 2026.
Sounds great, let’s ban it in every form except the one we literally eat…
Actually it’s in a lot of food wrappers.
And those aren’t as durable as cooking utensils. If you don’t scratch your pan with a metal fork and don’t use it for two decades, it’s apparently somewhat safe. Not according to the companies, I’m not shilling, Last Week Tonight had a point about it on their episode about PFA’s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W74aeuqsiU
I’d personally love to not consume any fucking PFAS, but I also understand that this French thing is still a massive step forwards for regulations on the matter.
Tldr it’s still a win
That stuff sticks to (aka reacts with) literally nothing. That’s the point of it. The whole innovation of nonstick cookware was the fact they got it to stick to something. It’s not even dangerous if you ingest it, it doesn’t react with anything so it just comes back out.
What IS dangerous is the by products and intermediate products, as well as the stuff that comes off if you overheat it. (And also, like you said, when they get old)
This whole movement against non-stick is alright, but so many people do it for the wrong reasons. If you have nonstick, just use it and don’t buy nonstick next time. Throwing away perfectly fine cookware like that is like boycotting charmin by flushing down all your remaining rolls in one go and going to the store to buy new toilet paper from another brand.
so it just comes back out.
Eh… does it?
https://www.businessinsider.com/chart-how-long-hazardous-forever-chemicals-pfas-stay-in-blood-2023-3
It can take five hours for your body to filter half the amount of caffeine or alcohol you’ve consumed from your blood. LSD is a bit faster at three hours.
BPA has a similar half-life to caffeine and alcohol, but arsenic can take up to 10 hours.
Toxic metals like lead or radioactive polonium, take months to halfway leave your blood.
But PFAS surpass all of these other substances. Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It’s no wonder they’re called “forever chemicals.”
I still use my non-sticks, but like you said, I’m gonna buy non-PFAS cookware the next time I need to. I’m in no panic about my pans. What people probably should pay more attention to is PFAS in clothing. This might be a tad sensationalist as The Guardian often is, but eh, with a grain of salt: https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2023/jul/02/fashion-chemicals-pfas-bpa-toxic
Yes, the final product comes back out. The final product is PTFE, not PFAS. PTFE is harmless unless degraded or overheated (which is why you shouldn’t do that with non-stick cookware).
To produce PTFE, PFAS are used (or are intermediaries in the process), which is why the production is dangerous, but the product isn’t.
#Some of the PFAS that have been studied — PFOA, PFOS, and PFHS — can take over seven years to reduce by half in your bloodstream. It’s no wonder they’re called “forever chemicals.”
There’s no PTFE in that list.
So?
We’re not talking excretion, we’re talking blood half-life.
Too complex a distinction for a corporate shill?
Meh. It’s not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as the non-stick surface starts to show signs of scraping…
If you want to avoid this problem altogether you can just buy cast iron or enameled pans. But enamel is a lot stickier (and heavier) than teflon
The problem is that non-stick has been marketed heavily to the point that the majority of cheap pans are non-stick, even though there’s many purposes they’re not suitable for. For example they shouldn’t be used for high heat cooking, but how many people don’t know that? And they’re extremely toxic if the surface is chipped. Using the wrong utensils on the can chip them. Plus, there’s a number of pans out there that make it look like they’re a different material, but actually it’s just the same thing rebranded. So even if people are using them wrong, it’s very understandable why someone who’s a casual cook wouldn’t realize that they’re endangering themselves by using the pans wrong.
Yeah believe me I know all about that. My dad is a materials scientist and has been rambling about us eating Teflon for a few decades now. Using metal utensils with the non stick pans is one of the few ways to truly get yelled at in my parents’ house
Adding carbon steel to this, because I love my pan, and my mother-in-law (who lives to cook) can use it without arthritis pain. She always used to complain about the cast iron hurting her joints when she lifted our other pans.
What I’m also curious about is the ceramic coated pans. I’ve seen them advertised (I think Green Pan, whatever). I would like a lighter alternative to Le Crouset that I could cook acidic foods in.
I’m somewhat curious as well, but that’s when I reach for stainless over cast iron. There’s a balance there: I think some people overreact when usually cooking acidic stuff is no problem. Of course I also don’t cook long simmering stuff like pasta sauce so I don’t need to pay much attention.
I do also use a crock pot, which is ceramic and has at least some overlap with long cooking acidic foods that may be tainted by stainless or cast iron
I only know what I’ve read online about ceramic:
- generally very safe and non-reactive
- almost as non-stick as non-stick
- a few cheap Chinese knockoffs leached metals but this really shouldn’t be a problem
- harder to damage with utensils than non-stick
- however they don’t last longer, may even be shorter.
My decision was based on wanting something more permanent so I didn’t have to buy it again, and it’s nice to be able to rediscover metal utensils
It’s not that dangerous if you use a non-stick pan of good quality. And toss it in the bin as soon as …
Yeah, I was also in no panic but
- it’s not that dangerous in the short term, but it stays long term and long term accumulation is still unknown
- toxic waste during manufacture is dangerous - let’s just not do that
- I was annoyed having to replace the non-stick every ten years or so. It may be cheap to buy but it’s expensive over time
- no one follows through with tossing as 🔜 as there are signs of damage or flaking. Pretty much all of us have eaten more Teflon than we should and keep adding more and more
So now I have good stainless and cast iron for about the same price but it could potentially last the rest of my life: reducing toxic chemicals from manufacturing, reducing the amount of forever chemicals accumulating in my body, and saving me money. Even better, by paying attention to the quirks of effective use of these pans, I’ve become a better cook and find the cleanup usually no worse than non-stick
Careful what you wish for. PTFE is used in liners of a lot of life saving catheters. The stuff that goes I side your heart and brain and saves your life…
Its about finding alternatives. Right now there is an immense economic & lobby pressure to not pursue finding alliterative materials.
PTFE is super cheap to produce & is sold with high margins. Financially would be basically impossible to fund research for alternative material, produce it without economies of scale, compete in a saturated market, etc.
Cases like this is exactly why we need representatives of the people to act & pass laws.
Its like with plastic (one use?) products, the mantra was “nothing can be as good as plastic” and it took the market no time to produce better products without plastic. But there is a lot of push back, eg there is absolutely no need for paper straws to get soggy (we have the tech) yet you mostly see only the shitty kind.
Or the example of paper industry, they had the interest to ditch plastic and they did to an extend. Those little transparent windows in envelopes are super cheap cellulose, but a decade ago they were plastic.
I presume it’s mostly used in the handles. I don’t think we cook on plastic.
It’s on the non stick coating for a lot of pans and can easily flake off and be ingested if you damage it by using metal utensils. This is why you should never use metal on nonstick.
I have family that makes me rip my hair out over this shit.
They put their non-stick in the oven, They use metal tools on it, and they refuse to replace it when the coating fails and starts coming off.
They denigrate me as some kine of hoity-toity rich man with my “pointless” pain replacements, when they arent getting angry at me for “looking down” on them by saying that their pans unsafe.
Just buy a cast iron or a steel pan for fucks sake!
What’s wrong with using it in the oven?
The teflon coating starts to breakdown at higher temperatures. The pan or box they came in has to state not safe for oven use. Also preheating on the burner can cause it. Food in the pan mostly prevents it from reaching that temperature.
Most Teflon pans used to have plastic handles that dummy proofs them from the oven.
I’m more worried that your family forces you to rip your hair out
I used to work in food service - I remember one day they replaced all the pans with new ones that had a black Teflon coating… about 6 months later, ALL of the black, except a little bit around the edge, was completely gone. Just bare metal. All of it flaked off into our customers’ food.
Were you scraping them with steel wool or something
In a commercial kitchen? I’d bet good money they were using metal utensils.
Teflon isn’t heat-resistant enough to withstand proper frying temperatures for long and actual chefs are going to do an actual sear. If you want non-stick there’s carbon steel or cast iron (as well as proper technique), if you want stick-and-deglaze (yes that’s a thing) use stainless steel. All three are going to out-live your great-grandchildren.
If you want something acid-resistant use a ceramic or stainless pan: Stuff like tomato sauce is going to strip patina off cast iron or carbon steel. Sure, you can just re-do the patina but it’s going to take some cycles before it’s up to its old non-stick properties again. Those non-stick ceramic pans are basically fancy enamel, when they lose their non-stick properties clean them with oxygen bleach that’s going to strip fatty residues out of the tiny dimples in the coating and they’ll be as good as new. Only way to really damage them is to shatter the coating.
That makes a lot of sense.
A bit odd that a commercial kitchen would buy teflon though considering how fragile it is.
I guess incompetent management is incompetent.
To be fair: it is mostly inert. But using carbon steel instead has virtually 0 cost and a much longer lifespan(that yourself)
Yes, I never understood the problem with carbon steel cookware. Like, we achieved peak ease of overall use. I want tools like that to be always there, stay the same, and that I don’t have to ever even think about replacing it. Also its appropriate to cook anything in it.
I’ve never done it or had the need but at most what you can do is polish the cooking surface of it somehow became scratched/rough & food gets caught in those spots. But seriously, scratching steel (in the amount that doesn’t immediately go away with normal use) is kinda hard and an achievement.
I think part of the overall problem is that people start cooking in cold steel cookware?
That’s where you’re wrong, bucko
Its the non-stick in the non-stick pan.
It’s* the non-stick
I hate this keyboard. You have no idea how much.
Nonstick pans, though most of the harm is from manufacture, not end-use
Its used as the nonstick coating
It’s* used as
PTFE, aka Teflon.
Fucking teflon lobbying wins wtf
Stoneware ftw. Couldn’t pay me to go back to Teflon.
Do tell. Stoneware as a brand name, or material?
Granite and ceramics. Can’t go back. Cook an omelette in a stone pan and your mind will be blown . Super even heat, obviously very tough (yeeeeeears of life), and that egg will slide onto your plate without leaving a trace. Teflon and steel feels like those things humans do where we invent something despite the real solution having always been there all along.
I’m more of an enameled cast iron enjoyer myself
I own some enameled iron but find it’s only good for things like spaghetti sauce that attack exposed iron, and deglaze stuck material on their own.
Otherwise everything sticks to it terribly compared to regular seasoned iron.
Do you have a trick to avoid this? I’ve tried all manner of oils as well as lethecin spray, nothing seems to work for me.
Not really, it is quite terribly sticky. But it will outlast you, and heats up more or less uniformly. Also it’s great for stuff that is better served warm because you can make a huge pot of it and the thermal inertia of the pot will keep it warm for a while
Also idk if you know this already, but I found that usually, heating some water in it for a while (a good 30 mins, you don’t need to bring the water to a boil either), will help a fair bit with the cleanup of some sticky residues.
Eh, at least this will reduce the amounts of PFAS being produced. I mean, teflon pans at least actually have a useful purpose, rather than things like PFAS coated burger wrappers.
Barely useful. Stainless steel and cast iron can achieve an almost equal non-stick effect, and handle much higher temperatures without toxic offgassing or stuff chipping off and ending up in the food.
Leaden flatware works too, but why use it when we have ceramic?
Teflon isn’t necessarily even easier to use than cast iron or stainless steel, I think the main issue there is that the education around how to use cookwear is very poor. It’s not just pop on the stove and go.
Yeah, I’ve never liked teflon either. The coating always seems to get scratched up no matter how careful you are with it (and some of those flakes end up in your food). But some people swear by it, so I could see them getting angry about a ban.
I’ve been auper happy with my ceramic pans the past couple years. Seems like nothing stocks to those bad boys
A dear friend of mine keeps birds, and she exclusively uses ceramic cookware. She swears by it, and honestly I get it.
Ceramic is basically fancy textured enamel. They do gunk up after a while, just clean with oxygen bleach.
I use all those pans and love them but I have never gotten them to be remotely non stick for low heat cooking. They’re great at searing, and you should never sear in a non stick, but for low heat cooking I haven’t found anything that remotely comes close to Teflon.
That’s fair, I just kind of put up with the fact that they don’t.
I like french omelets and haven’t once come close to being able to make one successfully on anything but a non stick pan. Even chefs like Jacques Pepin uses them for dishes like that, and a lot of french dishes are low heat, so I understand why they’d want pans that can perform well for that. Personally, I’ve had my non sticks for many years now and they’re still in great condition because I take care of them. I don’t overheat them, I only use silicone or wood on them, and I hand wash them (because dishwashers can’t physically scrub, dishwasher detergents have abrasives in them to dislodge food from surfaces which will scratch up the pan and make it deteriorate. It’s also why you don’t put knives in the dishwasher.). Every time I’ve been over at someone’s house with bad quality non stick pans and observed them cook, they’ve been doing everything wrong, metal utensils, high heat, dishwasher. Those things will destroy your pans immediately, and you’re not going to know that unless you’re already into cooking, and another part of the problem is that the people who will benefit from the pans the most, are also people who aren’t good at cooking yet. Used correctly, they’re still a very good tool to have in your arsenal for many dishes for even an experienced cook.
I do think it’s a big problem that people use the pans incorrectly all the time, it’s bad for the environment to not take care of the stuff you own and have to trash them early, but that’s true in general. In the case of non stick pans it’s extra bad because of the chemicals used in them and that they also will impact your health since the fumes that can be produced by using them wrong is dangerous, so maybe these pans need to come with instruction manuals, or maybe people are just too irresponsible for us to have nice things, but I personally really like them for a lot of specific dishes that they excel at, all dishes that require non stick at low heats.
Almost as good and much bigger pain to use? Yeah, great deal lol
Cast iron: cook a load of bacon bacon before you try making tomato sauce and don’t put it in a dishwasher. Trying not to scratch Teflon is way more of a pain.
We just have plastic and wood utensils for cooking. I guess it would be a pain if you had metal ones
I just would probably avoid a tomato sauce in cast iron, high carbon steel, or aluminum pans. That’s what stainless is for.
It’s fine if you’re quick about it, or if you’re willing to re-do the patina. That is, there’s a huge difference in stripping between frying up some cut-up tomatoes a minute before you dump noodles into the pan, and reducing a tomato sauce.
It really isn’t that big a pain if you know how to use them. Carbon steel is also a fantastic option.
if you know how to use them
Right
Exactly, this’ll limit the exposure to them in things you wouldn’t expect them to be on/in. You can avoid Teflon pans and go iron or steel but the amount of stuff coated in PFAS is ridiculous. Hell, even sofas, rugs, blinds, etc all sorts of stuff. And before anyone says “you don’t eat that stuff”, try telling my toddlers that! I bought a black milk frothing jug for my espresso machine. The black coating? Teflon. Not mentioned anywhere, not even marketed as non-stick.
Yes, any positive change is good.
Its just that economy/corporations are politically too powerful to make changes at speed we actually can (phase out PFAS). So the process is slower. And people die for profits of some, not to mention accumulation of that nasty stuff in various natural habitats.
Stainless steel cookware is cheap, easy to clean, and extremely durable. Nonstick pans are for people who don’t know shit.
It’s not planned obsolescence but something remarkably similar. They can be made for cheaper, go to shit eventually, then they wind up in a landfill while the consumer buys yet another. All wrapped up in slick marketing.
They’re not really easy to clean, but I’m sure I’m also “cooking wrong”. With that said I only ever use cast iron so I don’t really care
Stainless + cast iron is all you need.
I prefer to have all 3: stainless, cast iron and carbon steel. Personally I have a carbon steel wok that does double duty as a frying pan.
Cast iron doesn’t like dishwashers though
You’re not wrong, but it only takes 30-60 seconds to clean by hand. Scrub with chainmail and water then a light wash with a non-lye soap like dawn to remove excess oils. The soap isn’t even necessary if you use really hot water then wipe it clean with a rag.
True but needing all kinds of special treatment and equipment just for one pan type is a pain
Once your pan is seasoned it takes so little care. Just give it a fast hand wash like any non stick pan. Dish soaps used to be bad but these days they’re gentle enough to not be a problem.
To me, what is a pain is having to buy a pan every couple years. Or getting a new non stick pan and having roommates use metal on it when I specifically said not to.
The durability of cast iron makes it less fuss, imo.
Yeah the durability is the greatest thing. I can use metal spatulas and scrape away. No need to baby it, it’s literally a hunk of metal. I don’t even give a shit how the seasoning looks anymore, if food doesn’t stick badly it’s all good.
People overdo it to be honest. I just stopped caring and started using dish soap. Zero problems whatsoever. So it’s not more work than a regular pan.
I’ve hit upon the technique of just storing my cast iron pan in the oven. After using it, I wash it gently with dish soap to get the food/oil off, dry it, and put it back in the oven, maybe with a light wipe of oil. That way, it gets seasoned incidentally every time I bake something. It’s super easy, and stays nice and shiny now.
It doesn’t need any special treatment. I season my cast iron pans no more than a few times a year, and usually only because I did something dumb like making tomato sauce in it instead of using the stainless steel pan. There is a minimum skill level, but the bar isn’t high at all.
I don’t even remember the last time I seasoned mine. Definitely not even once a year.
You don’t need any special equipment. Chain mail is useful to have in general though (not just for cast iron), but not mandatory.
There are people who go crazy with cast iron pans, seasoning and whatnot. I have had the same cast iron pan for around 30 years and I washed it by hand like all the other dishes before I had a dishwasher and now I wash it in a dishwasher, it works the same all these years.
Imo pans just take too much space in the dishwasher so I’ll just wash them immediately after use. Takes like 30 seconds because the pan still being hot helps immensely. After drying I like to oil them, just because I like how they look oiled, literally no other reason.
Love being able to use steel wool on my wok without worry
A proper stainless steel frying pan here costs about 100€+, more than a similar sized carbon steel or cast iron would cost
That’s crazy, depending on what you mean by “proper”. However I lucked out getting a full set of nice five ply stainless at a closeout for under $200
I also got a couple cast iron skillets on sale.
Overall, I spent less getting a full set of stainless plus 3 cast iron skillets, than I did on my previous set of non-stick about ten years ago, and these should last much longer. Is it too early to say this is my last set of cookware?
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I fucking hate nonstick pans. I’m currently renting a condo on vacation and all the cookware is nonstick. I’m not willing to trade cancer for the minor inconvenience of my food to not stick to my pan. Not to mention, since it’s a rental condo, and a hundred random people have used it, they are all scratched to shit. I’m low key tempted to go to Ross mid trip for a stainless pan.
as someone who’d worked in the restaurant industry i second this.
To avoid stuff sticking to stainless steel, is the secret heating up the oily pan to a high temperature before adding the ingredients?
Not quite that simple, but
- yes a good first rule is something is less likely to stick if it hits a hot pan
- another good one is to always clean right away. It makes a huge difference in how easy it is
- the harder part is not over-heating and causing the sugars or other solids to burn.
- learn how to deglaze: clean the pan with no effort by making a delicious sauce
- learn different ways to clean. Sometimes you will burn stuff but it’s not a disaster and doesn’t have to mean a huge scrubbing effort
Actually, you heat the pan without oil first - this is important. To test the temp, you can add a splash of water. The perfect temp is when the water pools together and bounces around. Once the pan is nice and hot, add oil. Let it get hot - use med-high heat. From there it is non-stick and you can adjust to your cooking temp. If you are dealing with really sticky food, you can throw out that initial hot oil, then add some fresh oil, bring it just to cooking temp and add your food. It sounds slightly complicated and takes a little practice, but if you do this, your stainless steel pans will work better than non-stick pans. Also, for deep cleaning your pans, you can soak with spent lemons or oranges and rinds. Can also add baking soda for extra cleaning power. For the outside of your pans, use barkeeper’s friend once a year. Incorporate all this and you have excellent buy it for life stainless steel pans.
Any tips for eggs? I can’t keep eggs from sticking to save my life when using stainless, even with generous oil and/or butter.
Moar butter
Add water and poach
Turn down the heat
Try the methods I explained and play with the temps. You may need to get it hotter before the oil, or after you put the oil in. Try getting the oil super hot, tossing it and then putting in new oil and getting that hot. Try messing with the temps each time until you figure it out. Once you do, you’ll get a feel for it and have way less trouble. The thickness of your pan plays into how quickly it will heat. I do this same method for my wok but since it’s so thin and less conductive, it instantly heats.
Are you struggling with fried eggs or scrambled?
Hmm, yeah I’ll have to experiment. Fried eggs I’ve mostly got, but scrambled just ends up leaving a thin stuck mess every time.
I find it much easier to cook scrambled eggs in a well-seasoned carbon steel or cast iron pan. You can do it in stainless, but it’s definitely more finicky.
Don’t give up! Fried eggs are much easier. I’ve got mine on lock. I’ll sometimes do the double oil trick with scrambled eggs. I cook mine low and slow, which I think is a little more difficult to get the oil just right. When I do a faster cook and constantly move them, I’ve had better results.
I use Carbon Arch btw
Stainless Steel Debian is good enough for me.
Hey as long as it isn’t Teflon Windows 👍
Copper Tin Void nodding in agreement in the distance wearing a fancy tuxedo
I actually googled Tefal after reading just the title to check if they arena French company… God i hate lobying
This seems pretty stupid, just use carbon steel or cast iron: They both work great and don’t poison everyone!
Both of these do require more maintenance and patience than nonstick, which will inevitably make some people upset
I don’t fully agree with this, I’ve had nonstick pans in the past, and I had to baby the shit out of them to make sure they didn’t scratch, and they can only really be used in certain applications (never in the oven, don’t preheat, etc.)
I tossed my cast iron pan into a 800 degree pizza oven the other day and did not worry about anything. I beat the crap out of it with metal utensils, that are sturdier and better than their plastic counterparts, and it comes out smiling.
Yes I do have to hand wash it, but even that is easier because I can scrape any stuck on food off with a metal spatula or chainmail scrubber. If that’s a deal breaker, just go stainless and move on.
100% but many people don’t care about this stuff at all. They will happily toss their nonstick pan in the dishwasher, ruining it, and then buy a new one a year or two later when it doesn’t work properly anymore, or just suffer with it and conclude that they are bad at cooking. When you try to discuss seasoning, hand washing, and the intricacies of frying pan materials, their eyes immediately glaze over. Nonstick pans have the advantage of just working when you get a new one, and that is really appealing to someone with low cooking knowledge or interest.
I feel like marketing did a number on us.
These things are branded as ‘non-stick’ like steel is ‘do-stick’? And people just accepted that?
‘More maintenance’ than going to the store to buy new cookware every 6 months?
And I don’t really maintain my steel cookware, aside from putting it in & out of the dishwasher.
Only if you are putting the nonstick into the dishwashee.
Cast iron and to a lesser extent carbon steel require special considerations for seasoning, none of them are dishwasher safe. Stainless steel doesn’t really need seasoning but is significantly easier to get high protein food stuck on than PTFE
Getting things stuck is the point of stainless steel, things getting stuck means more goodness in the sauce you create by deglazing it.
Unless you’re cooking eggs. Getting your eggs horribly stuck to a stainless steel pan is a total nightmare!
For meats yes, for everything else no.
If I was French I’d probably demonstrate against the lobby groups and the government decision right now.
I love that tefal stuff ngl.
Most people can’t cook for shit and their stainless pan would be trashed in a few uses
They have non-PFAS nonstick pans now. Ours are ceramic coated.
