Germany Suspects Sabotage Hit Russia’s Nord Stream Pipelines
www.bloomberg.com
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Germany suspects the Nord Stream gas pipeline system was damaged by an act of sabotage, in what would amount to a major escalation in the standoff between Russia and Europe.

anon has an explanation

Muad'Dibber
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The brain geniuses over at reddit think Russia went deep into NATO territory to bomb their own pipeline, that they could shut off from their own side at any moment.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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4D chess :)

I’ve seen an absolutely beautiful lib take about the sabotage of Nordstream:

They admitted that it doesn’t really make any sense for Russia to do this, so Russia totally DID do it to seem more “unpredictable and crazy” and therefore make the threat of an escalation to nuclear warfare seem more credible. Perhaps they can use the heat generated by these kinds of mental gymnastics to keep warm during the winter.

Muad'Dibber
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The enemy is both calculating, strong, cunning, strategic, logical, has brilliant tactics, and at the same time unpredictable, nonsensical, emotional, short-sighted and weak.

So basically both Russia and China… the enemy is everything and nothing at the same time, has to be some Zen shit.

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Bound to happen with people for whom Call of Duty has been the most formative experience in understanding international politics

Not even those dumb shooters have plots THIS dumb.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Biden: “If Russia invades…then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.”

Reporter: “But how will you do that, exactly, since…the project is in Germany’s control?”

Biden: “I promise you, we will be able to do that.”

https://twitter.com/ArtValley818_/status/1574758480178999299

This was Nordstream 1 that got sabotaged, whereas Biden was referring to Nordstream 2. And Biden was referring to putting pressure on contractors that would be necessary to construct the pipe.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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It’s both pipelines that got sabotaged, and US is the only country with a clear motive to do that as well as history of such sabotage.

Maybe it was actually the green party

/s

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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lol

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Both pipelines are damaged.

Biden was referring to putting pressure on contractors

🤨 ok buddy

Maybe they used a pressure system to blow up the pipeline lmao

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@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Ah yes, Russia bombed its own bargaining chip playing 4D chess. You are very intelligent.

Holy shit man your history is nothing but posting about the war

And always 100% for the NATO, even with most nonsense claims.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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That only means you are just even more pro-NATO than NATO itself is.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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You wrote it yourself lol.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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cry ab it

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Your tears just makes it funnier.

Oh no poor Cia agent, at least you are paid

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Www muffin, didn’t you know everyone here is conspiring against you.

Marxism-Fennekinism
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I wonder who has a vested interest in making sure the EU doesn’t negotiate with Russia. I also wonder who’s been selling the EU gas at viciously inflated prices. Hmm…

It is totally Russia, you see, because USA stands with Ukraine, and Cold War, Russia bad, China bad, and le Soviet technology and must balkanise them and denazification is a lie to conquer Ukraine and totally do Western expansion!

Did I sound like NATO libs?

No, not enough hypocrisy.

Sorry for not being a true lib, I just cannot be one you know. No matter how hard I try, cannot happen.

Muad'Dibber
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Nonono you see, we have users below telling us that countries don’t act in their own interest anymore. US doesn’t sabotage russia-eu pipelines because that would be in their interest to do so. Russia does sabotage their own pipelines because its against their economic interests.

It makes perfect sense as long as you understand the guiding principle: “Russia bad”.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Looks like the US Navy was around Bornholm at the very time and place of the (alleged) sabotage: https://twitter.com/AZmilitary1/status/1574758898086694912

What a coincidence.

Meanwhile German mainstream media is already spewing out theories about Russian sabotage of their own pipeline and conveniently never mentions the actual prime suspect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS4O8rGRLf8&t=81s

It’s the US Navy. If there’s international water, they’re probably there.

Marxism-Fennekinism
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And if the Russians were sabotaging it, you don’t think the US would have seen them? Or the presence of the US have would have deterred them? Presumably in your mind they were already patrolling the pipeline for security. The US has been surprisingly silent on this haven’t they?

This is Stockholm Syndrome to a tee.

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Super quick glance, /r/sweden/ thinks Russia did it. SVT isn’t pointing fingers yet.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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This is coming a week after Russia said they stopped a Ukrainian attack on energy infrastructure linking Russia to Turkey and the rest of Europe as the article mentions but for some reason doesn’t link to (and this is better to avoid the paywall anyway)

Interesting, but seeing as it’s Russia making the claim it could well just be disinformation.

Marxism-Fennekinism
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“Russia bad. America good. I’m a free thinker. You’re a brainwashed tankie.”

I made no claims about America, but Russia is particularly bad when it comes to lies. Remember when all of this was starting and they were waving away a massive buildup of tanks as a training drill? Russia makes claims of genocide by Ukraine while denying well documented mass murder of Ukrainian civilians. It claims that US contractors are deploying chemical weapons in the Donbass region. Then there were the transparent lies around Flight MH17. The US lies from time to time, it is true. But Russia lies habitually in a firehose of misinformation to confuse between truth and fiction. It is like comparing Trump and his habitual lying with a more normal politicians occasional truth stretching. Not even the same league.

Russia waged Cold War on USA. Riiiiiight?

The US lies from time to time

If only I had your level of denial, then maybe I wouldn’t be so miserable living in the West.

Honey. Is this the secret to all these eurolibs pretending that everything is fine?

You know what can definitely help you?

✨ Russian citizenship ✨

Marxism-Fennekinism
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You think it’s that easy to immigrate anywhere? Trust me, if I could leave, I would. I can’t.

Also, loving your ability at nuance. Everyone who doesn’t hate Russia or defends them in any way worships Russia and wants nothing but to live there and lick the ground Putin walked on.

Look at that, turns out it’s not that hard… 👀

Again, love your nuance. Just because I defend some of Russia’s actions I’m automatically enamoured with them and want to live there and fight in the war. No in between huh, man, the world you live in must be so easy, too bad I live in reality.

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The plane was almost certainly shot down by separatists who mistakened it for a Ukrainian air force bomber. They then prevented any neutral third party from investigating.

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Muad'Dibber
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Russia = untrustworthy, we all know that. /s

Seriously tho, what motivation would Russia have to bomb something that brings them profit? It makes as much sense as the US bombing its own gas pipelines.

What profit motive would Russia have to invade Ukraine, knowing there would be massive economic backlash? They’re not motivated by simple profit calculations at the moment. And it’s not like that pipeline is bringing them profit now. For that matter, it may never bring them profit again with a Europe that will be reluctant to return to relying on an unreliable source of energy.

Muad'Dibber
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Ukraine has been invading and bombing the donbass with impunity since 2014, over 8k civilians killed in that time. Defending their border areas, and the lives of russian-speaking peoples, is a core strategic interest. Keeping those areas stable does help their profit in the long term. Why was Ukraine attacking the donbass, if that’s wrecking their country now?

And it’s not like that pipeline is bringing them profit now.

That’s the US’s goal, not Russia’s! Russia very much wants to continue selling gas via the pipelines.

on an unreliable source of energy.

When the US sabotages infrastructure projects, they’re “unreliable”. This is like saying I burned down your farm, so you must have no interest in keeping it since its unreliable.

Why was Ukraine attacking the donbass, if that’s wrecking their country now?

Because there are separatists in the region who were obviously going to eventually “ask” to join Russia. Is Ukraine supposed to sit by idly while Russia takes more and more of its territory under the pretense of protecting Russian speakers? Are you aware of Hitler’s similar moves during WW2? This isn’t about economics, it’s about a country’s sovereignty.

When the US sabotages infrastructure projects, they’re “unreliable”. This is like saying I burned down your farm, so you must have no interest in keeping it since its unreliable.

That’s not what I mean when I say unreliable. I mean a source that becomes a security threat. It’s become clear that the Cold War and Russian imperialism never were truly over for some Russians, especially at the top.

Muad'Dibber
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Are you aware of Hitler’s similar moves during WW2?

You mean genociding russian-speaking ppls in eastern europe, exactly like what ukraine is doing? BTW the current Ukrainian government is erecting monuments to their nazi collaborators as fast as they can.

You mean genociding russian-speaking ppls in eastern europe, exactly like what ukraine is doing?

According to who, Russia? Putin? The man lies as easily as he breathes.

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Well good thing you’re here to defend the Nazis.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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LMAO

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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The only funny part is you continuing trying to pretend that Ukraine isn’t run by literal fascists. Sad.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Ukraine bans communism and socialism. How can a country be democratic without democratic governance?

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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LMFAO, in the real world Ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/feb/04/welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine

where the fascists banned all opposition https://mronline.org/2022/03/24/opposition-political-parties-banned-in-ukraine-and-unified-information-policy-imposed/

Yeah, let’s stick to the lane of Ukrainian fascists doing ethnic cleansing in Donbas which was the original topic. You’re the one who sealioned into it with BuT AchuAlLy iT iS RusSiA wHo ArE tHe ReAL NaZis.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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What’s the logic to “free” a less-corrupted country with your increased corruption?

The difference here is that I never claimed that Russia is some beacon of democracy was you’re doing here with Ukraine.

For me it seems the original topic of this thread is: “Germany Suspects Sabotage to Russia’s Nord Stream Gas Pipelines”.

Well, you certainly haven’t said anything regarding what you claim to be the original topic of the thread.

Seanchaí (she/her)
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Democracy is when you ban 11 left-wing parties including your largest opposition party right?

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Yes, it is logical. When you want to assert authority and remain in power, it is, in fact, logical to ban your opposition. But it is not democratic. It’s fascist.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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I didn’t say anything about Russia. I just replied to your assertion that Ukraine is trying to be democratic. It isn’t.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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But how are they “trying” to be. What effort was made to be democratic? Was it when America organized a coup of the popularly elected government in 2014? Was it when they integrated ethnic cleansing Nazis into the government? Was it when they banned their opposition? Was it when they closed their borders to all men eligible to the draft? Was it when they promised to sell off national assets to western corporations on the stock market? Was it when they declared their desire to be a second Israel (a literal genocidal apartheid state)?

What part of this is an “attempt” at democracy??

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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I still never said a fucking thing about Russia.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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No, I’m actually bringing up very specific incidents that occurred in Ukraine, that can be confirmed by Ukraine governmental sources, and that were widely reported by Western media outlets.

What you are doing, however, is trying to paint any criticism of Ukraine as pro-Russian propaganda, and then cutting off conversation when you run out of canned talking points.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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I still really absolutely never said a fucking thing about Russia. This is deflection mate. Pure and simple. All I did was refute your claim that Ukraine is democratic. By bringing up the very publicly available information that Ukraine itself provided regarding their non-democratic practices.

LOL it’s hilarious when these trolls have to go off script. 😂

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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You don’t “try” to be democratic. Either your people get a voice or they don’t. And when you ban your largest opposition party your people don’t get a voice. Simple as.

And you accuse me of “cherry-picking” and using a “propaganda handbook” but wait’ll you read how fucking often the West has backed fascist and far-right governments under the guise of gaining “more democratic status” as you put it. That is the epitome of the propaganda handbook.

Take a fucking look at literally ever nation post US-backed coups to see the exact same fucking lines, ending with the people suffering immensely in exchange for the military-industrial complex to ramp up sales, and for the resources of that nation to be ruthlessly exploited by wall street. A thing that is literally what is being promised for Ukraine.

Honest to god. Read a fucking book.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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My take is that anyone who is on the same side as America in pretty much anything, while America is lapping up the blood like fucking water in the desert and slapping arms deals around left and right is a complete fucking muppet

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Your obsession with getting me to try to say something in defense of Russia so you can confidently claim I’m a Russian troll or something is wild.

My entire conversation has been about Ukraine’s status as a non-democratic, far-right government whose people are being ruthlessly exploited by American businesses and fed into the maws of war so that wall street can profit.

If you cared about the people of Ukraine (the fucking people not the fascist government and the corporations they are stooges for) you wouldn’t spend your days online shilling US talking points designed to manufacture consent for continuing hostilities, while the threat of a looming winter energy crisis haunts Western Europe.

A looming energy crisis that would remind European citizens that this entirely manufactured war could be brought to an end through negotiations, something which would save lives in Russia, Ukraine, and Western Europe, but which would cost America money.

America hates to lose money however, and loves the business of war, so in order to make sure this conflict drags on as long as possible and as many people as possible die, they need to ensure that Western Europe doesn’t cave to energy demands and negotiate a deal with Russia, bringing an end to the war and re-opening the flow of gas.

Which brings us to the start of this thread: America has the most to gain from this sabotage.

Fin

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☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to western propaganda.

If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to western propaganda.

If only you showed the same level of skepticism when it comes to Russian propaganda.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Oh I do, there is plenty of wild stuff coming out of Russia that’s just as laughable as the stuff put out by the west.

Then maybe do me a solid and respond to some of the people here who are echoing Kremlin propaganda, eh?

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Please be specific what it is you claim to be Kremlin propaganda in this thread and why.

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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Claims of genocide by the Ukrainian government. There have been no such efforts from the government. The worst I have seen in concrete terms is trying to force Russian speakers to use Ukrainian, and that had been limited. It’s mostly just fear mongering.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Claims of genocide by the Ukrainian government

There have been, and they’re well documented. I’ve linked western sources detailing such efforts in many threads now.

The worst I have seen in concrete terms is trying to force Russian speakers to use Ukrainian, and that had been limited. It’s mostly just fear mongering.

Then you clearly haven’t bothered looking very hard, here are a few things you could start reading to educate yourself:

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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I see sins aplenty, but no genocide.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Third link literally discusses ethnic cleansing, but ok…

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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It literally says the opposite of that on page 12.

This analysis and common political science definitions show that genocide, fascist, junta, and terrorism are not appropriate terms to define the conflict in Donbas.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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The study chooses to avoid using the term genocide, but if you actually read it you will see that it clearly states that the conflict is based around national identity and ethnicity. It also documents lots of crimes committed by the Maidan regime, and genuine desire from the people of Donbas and Crimea to separate from Ukraine. If you bother reading other sources I’ve provided above then I don’t know how you can claim that the regime is not involved in ethnic cleansing.

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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The paper doesn’t avoid the topic of genocide. It categorically and explicitly rules out genocide by name. And just because a conflict is based around national identity and ethnicity does not automatically make it a genocide. Nor do acts of violence. This is war.

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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What is the war about, why do the eastern parts of Ukraine want to separate?

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