Putin orders partial military call-up, sparking protests
apnews.com
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KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered a partial mobilization of reservists Wednesday to bolster his forces in Ukraine, a deeply unpopular move that sparked rare protests across the country and led to almost 1,200 arrests.
@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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When looking at the traffic cam, the line from Russia to Finland is quite…long: https://www.liikennetilanne.fi/kelikamerat/Kymenlaakso/Virolahti/tie-7/vt7_Vaalimaa_raja/Kuva-raja-asemalta-itaan-C0351201

Doesn’t sound like a solid morale if you think about the troops.

EDIT: Some sources say the first Twitter link and video I posted is not even from today, so it’s probaby BS. Deleting it. Sorry about that :( I think it’s good to point out any possible disinformation. Many sources also say that the traffic is still in normal limits, and it’s common that people come from Russia by morning and return in the afternoon or evening. Still, that doesn’t explain the current situation in the traffic cams. Night traffic shouldn’t be that frequent. Yesterday evening the line was empty.

The amount of Russian coming to Finland daily from southern east border has doubled: https://twitter.com/kaakkoisraja/status/1573173754288635904/photo/1

The upper line means people from all countries, the second one is Russians.

@OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml
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Look bae, varjolintu posted literal traffic cams since that’s the level of first party sources we need for people on these fringe websites to put down their Marxist books and tinfoil hats.

Try to understand that if Russians are pouring into Finland despite major infrastructure problems, the situation in Russia is sub-optimal. But I think you know that, given every comment you’ve made in this thread has danced around that topic.

Nice straw man. I don’t think I argued anywhere that the situation in Russia is in any way optimal. However, anybody with a couple of braincells to bang together realizes that situation in Europe is far worse. Russia is largely self sufficient in food and energy production, and has a working domestic industry. Europe now has none of these things, and it’s not even winter yet. European leadership has provided no solutions for these problems.

so why you’re not in Russia, mr sotnikov?

☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆
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Please do elaborate on what you’re trying to say here mr anonymous coward?

edit: also given that I want this war to end, it’s weird that you appear to be telling me to go fight in it. Seems to me that the people who keep advocating for escalations are the ones who should be packing their bags and going to fight on the frontlines.

You are just as pseudonymous here, does that make you a coward as well?

for people who don’t know how to use google I guess I would be

@cult@lemmy.ml
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How did you get into Clojure? I’ve been thinking of picking it up

I got interested in it a while back when I started playing around with FP style. I started with Haskell and really liked it, but I was already working on the JVM at the time and Clojure felt like the closest thing to it. I convinced my team to give it a shot, and things just kind of went from there. I do find it’s a really nice language all in all. If you’re interested in giving it a shot, here are some resources I compiled that my team used for onboarding.

One recommendation I can make is to set up editor integration with the REPL. This is one key feature in Lisps that isn’t present in mainstream languages. You can start up your application, connect the editor to it, and then evaluate any code you write immediately. This creates a really tight feedback loop between writing the code and seeing the results. This is an example of how it works with the VS Code plugin, but similar setup is available in Emacs, and other editors.

@cult@lemmy.ml
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Wow this is really good advice, thanks so much! I’ll definitely make use of those resources. I think the biggest thing for me when picking up a new tech/language is finding the right hobby project to spend too much time on haha

Yeah, I find that as well. Usually I’ll do some scripting to automate something or play around with doing visualizaions. Here’s a little example of doing some stuff with graphics.

Babashka also worth a mention, it’s a lightweight runtime for Clojure that has low memory overhead and fast startup https://babashka.org/

You can do dev against a repl with it as well, you just run bb --nrepl-server and connect the editor to the port it starts on. Might be the fastest way to play with the language. :)

are you ok?

ah I’m talking to a bot

speaking personally, i’d much rather prefer some electricity interruptions over being conscripted

A cold, dark house is a temporary state next to a cold, dark coffin.

idk what you mean by that

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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I am, as @cult noted, agreeing with you. A cold house and a blackout is a temporary discomfort, but death is permanent. Besides, I’m sure the front lines are going to be as cold and miserable as any household in Finland come winter.

yeah, that’s true unfortunately :/

@cult@lemmy.ml
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I think they’re agreeing with you

The way things are going Europeans could be looking at conscription in the near future as well. The more this conflict escalates the closer we get to WW3, and it’s absolutely insane to see people cheering this on.

European countries dont have the capacity to arm such a number of soldiers, let alone train them.

@cult@lemmy.ml
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The US has been the key to the rapid training of the Ukrainians. As much as the US military is a bit of a paper tiger, it’s still got a ton of resources and preparedness for things like this

It took them 8 years and most of the troops + equipment are already destroyed after half a year.

@cult@lemmy.ml
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Same exact comment holds for Russia. Crimea was 8 years ago and they’ve lost a lot of troops and equipment

All the available evidence shows that Ukraine is losing an order of magnitude more troops than Russia. Even western sources acknowledge this. The war consists primarily of artillery battles, and Russia outguns Ukraine by a significant amount. NATO planners evidently thought that Russia would just throw their troops at the fortifications they built up like lemmings.

Sure. That is why Finland is concerning opening some coal plants just in case. And of course all the young Russian men who don’t want to fight in the war will need electricity on this side of the border ;)

Yeah, enjoy energy shortages along with the refugees from Russia. I’m sure nothing but great times ahead for Finland here.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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We certainly will see what happens in a few months, and if the experts that were wrong about everything until now will suddenly end up being right about energy security.

Looks like Russia got backing from its partners at the Samarkand meeting to expand the operation in Ukraine into a full scale war.

Or you know the west could just stop the insanity and get Ukraine to negotiate. It’s absolutely amazing seeing the west destroy itself over this.

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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That goes both ways. Russia could stop invading Ukraine. Russia, not the West, chose to go to war.

I don’t get what this proves. That Russia is so war thirsty that it can be baited with little effort?

This isn’t supposed to prove anything else than the fact that there are people in the US and NATO who are profiting from such a war. Apparently, you agree on that, because you say that Russia can be baited easily.

What kind of effort do you mean with “little effort”? Do you have something particularly in mind when saying that, or do you mean that you have a general feeling that Russia is easily baited by the NATO into a war?

If you bother to RTFA, then you’ll see the report actually says that Russia is reluctant to get into a conflict with the west.

And the article never suggests that the Russians would escalate to an all out invasion, just to backing separatist forces plus a few Russian troops. It seems to have erred all around.

Well that’s the danger with gambling on provocations, you can always miscalculate catastrophically as US has done this time. However, that doesn’t change the fact that Russia tried to resolve this problem diplomatically for whole eight years.

And NATO could stop making Ukraine a proxywar basecamp against Russia, and trying to Balkanise Russia. You know right how that works?

@cult@lemmy.ml
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This isn’t really accurate though. It’s pretty clear this is a proxy war for the US to weaken Russia. NATO has made major expansions in Europe at least 3 times in the past two decades and each time it’s been denounced by basically the whole world. Putin might lie to his own people but on the foreign stage he’s been completely honest the entire time. I won’t go as far as to say “he had no other choice” but I do think it’s important to highlight the fact that Biden has publicly discussed the plan to “weaken” Russia.

Zelenskyy ran on a platform to make peace with Russia and they were literally in peace talks about to finalize a plan. It was NATO that went in and disrupted that

I’m not trying to defend Putin by any means, but I just think the framing of “it was Russia that chose to go to war” is painting an overly simplistic picture

Sure, the point is that Russia will not stop invading Ukraine, and the west can’t make Russia stop. So, now the question is how anyone benefits from the war being dragged on and escalated?

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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Okay, but blame that on Russia, not on the West or the Ukrainian government. Ukraine is not obligated to cede territory to invaders, and your framing of the West’s support is just blame shifting away from Russia. The choice and the blame lies solely with Russia. They could pull out tomorrow if they wanted to.

Also factor in that Ukraine’s government wants to put this to rest for good. The last thing they want is Russia coming back for another bite at the apple. They’re going to be less than willing to settle for less than victory, especially if they feel like Russia or Russian puppets will violate it.

This sort of moralizing is not constructive. I don’t really see what difference it makes whom you choose to blame for this. The reality of the situation is that the west and Russia can’t agree whose sphere of influence Ukraine will be in. The west overthrew the government in Ukraine in 2014 which led to a civil war in Ukraine. Now Russia is taking advantage of that to overthrow the regime that the west is backing.

The reality of the situation is that the west is not capable of producing weapons and ammunition at the same rate as Russia, especially now that Europe has been cut off from Russian energy. Ukrainian military continues to be steadily degraded in a war of attrition while European economy continues to deteriorate.

Nothing that the west has done in the past six months has worked as a deterrent for Russia, and now the war is escalating to a whole new level. This could eventually lead to NATO boots on the ground, and a potential nuclear war. Do you think it this is something we should be cheering on?

@pingveno@lemmy.ml
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This sort of moralizing is not constructive. I don’t really see what difference it makes whom you choose to blame for this.

My point more was that you seem to be treating Russia as some automaton that was inevitably driven to invade by NATO rather than a country with leaders that made the decision to invade their neighbor. I’ve only seen you make moral judgements towards NATO, not Russia. This at a time when Russia is making a move to take a very large portion of Ukraine’s pre-2014 territory by force.

I will even say this. Invading countries in response to NATO expansion creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Russia invades, other countries feel threatened, those join NATO, rinse and repeat. We saw the Finns flip a long standing neutrality policy virtually overnight. That’s Russia’s fault, not some NATO expansionism. They made Finland afraid, and Finland responded accordingly to protect itself. If Ukraine had done so earlier, it would never have been invaded.

The reality of the situation is that the west is not capable of producing weapons and ammunition at the same rate as Russia, especially now that Europe has been cut off from Russian energy.

Don’t underestimate the West’s manufacturing abilities. In WW2, it may have been Soviet lives that defeated Germany in the eastern front, but it was US weaponry even before the US entered the war via the Lend-Lease Act. Yes, I’ve seen that study about current stockpiles. The US is more than capable of shifting manufacturing capability to weapons. Russia also lacks some critical supplies, like encrypted radios. Its troops are using simple unencrypted Baofengs, which are getting them killed.

Russia will also have problems with these new soldiers. They’re generally untrained, and the officers needed to train them are mostly in the field fighting the war itself. Many of them will be very much unwilling participants. Ukraine on the other hand has its soldiers trained by NATO trainers. NATO trainers can’t be involved in the actual fighting for fear of escalation, but training carries little such risk.

My point more was that you seem to be treating Russia as some automaton that was inevitably driven to invade by NATO rather than a country with leaders that made the decision to invade their neighbor.

No, what I’m saying is that Russia has its own sphere of influence and strategic interests, and this is how Russia reacts when the west starts encroaching into its sphere. Whether you agree with that or not is really besides the point.

I will even say this. Invading countries in response to NATO expansion creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Russia invades, other countries feel threatened, those join NATO, rinse and repeat.

You’re making a faulty assumption here that NATO can survive this war. What’s currently happening is that NATO is being shown to be impotent to stop Russia. The whole point of NATO is to provide security for countries that join it, and if it’s not able to do that then it fails at its primary function.

NATO also depends on all of its members pitching in. With Europe losing access to cheap energy, it’s going to be pretty hard to do things like weapons and ammunition production. European steel mills are already starting to close now. Meanwhile, existing weapons stocks have been depleted in Ukraine.

So, will US be able to carry all of NATO given its own economic problems. Will it even be interested in doing so given that US is dead set on starting a conflict with China in the near future?

We saw the Finns flip a long standing neutrality policy virtually overnight. That’s Russia’s fault, not some NATO expansionism. They made Finland afraid, and Finland responded accordingly to protect itself.

Finland might as well have been part of NATO for all intents and purposes. On the other hand, NATO may soon lose Turkey and access to Black Sea as a result.

If Ukraine had done so earlier, it would never have been invaded.

I’m not sure what you’re basing this on. If Ukraine tried to join NATO earlier then we would’ve seen a war earlier. Russia’s position on this has been clear for a long time now.

Don’t underestimate the West’s manufacturing abilities.

I think you vastly overestimate west’s current manufacturing capability. I highly recommend you read what the experts have to say on the subject

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/return-industrial-warfare

Yes, I’ve seen that study about current stockpiles. The US is more than capable of shifting manufacturing capability to weapons.

Well here are some hard numbers saying that it can’t. The US Army is looking for companies that can build up to 12k 155 mm artillery shells a month. Russia uses 70k shells a day.

https://www.businessinsider.com/us-wants-to-build-artillery-shells-as-it-supplies-ukraine-2022-9

Russia also lacks some critical supplies, like encrypted radios. Its troops are using simple unencrypted Baofengs, which are getting them killed.

Absolutely zero evidence for this claim.

And again, I’ll remind you that manufacturing in Europe is shutting down as we speak

https://oilprice.com/Metals/Commodities/European-Stainless-Steel-Mills-Are-Closing-Due-To-Energy-Crisis.html

https://www.intellinews.com/energy-crisis-europe-s-industry-shutting-down-255913/

Russia will also have problems with these new soldiers. They’re generally untrained, and the officers needed to train them are mostly in the field fighting the war itself.

That’s false. Russia is calling up trained reservists with prior military experience.

Many of them will be very much unwilling participants.

As opposed to willing Ukrainian conscripts?

Ukraine on the other hand has its soldiers trained by NATO trainers. NATO trainers can’t be involved in the actual fighting for fear of escalation, but training carries little such risk.

NATO trained Ukrainian army for 8 years to a NATO standard, and this army failed to stand up to a small expeditionary force of 150k troops from Russia. Seems odd to believe that the remnants of Ukrainian army will be able to stand up to around 450k Russian troops along with LPR and DRP militias.

@sicaniv@lemmy.ml
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NATO was created by west to destabilize and weaken Russia.

Pre 2014, Ukraine did not join NATO and preferred respecting peace and harmony with Russia instead of endangering its sovereignty.

West wanted Ukraine to join NATO at any cost, not just to expand NATO but to create conflict and start a proxy war with Russia hopping to gain on trade front.

They overthrew the Ukrainian govt in 2014, by encouraging far right extremism based on hatred against everything Russian and brainwashing Ukrainian populous by the use of its Social Media plateforms, and installed a puppet regime.

Now when Ukrainian puppet regime was going to join NATO, Russia attacked it and trying to overthrow current puppet govt in Ukraine and let them elect their govt again by holding nation wide polls like they did pre 2014.

Now US got things happening in its favour from Russia Ukraine war :

–> It got a proxy war to weaken Russia.

–> It got other European countries who were neutral before, now joining NATO, fearing invasion from Russia like you say in your comment.

–> It got the low supply European markets (after Russia cut supply to Europe) for overpriced sales of its oil and food.

So, if USA is also involved in this conflict and benefiting most out of it then what else is there to stop you from concluding USA is deliberately lengthening this war and care shit about Ukraine or other countries regardless of their NATO membership.

that was inevitably driven to invade by NATO rather than a country with leaders that made the decision to invade their neighbor

It was. Welcome to world-systemic analysis, “communist”. I thought people have been over this for months here now. Decisions aren’t being made in a vacuum. When the only alternative is to sit around and wait for the imperialist to station rockets so close to Moscow it threatens neuclear parity, you invade your neighbour with a nazi problem and NATO’s hand up it’s ass to save your country from balkanization that’s been in the making for decades now.

I will even say this. Invading countries in response to NATO expansion creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Russia invades, other countries feel threatened, those join NATO, rinse and repeat. We saw the Finns flip a long standing neutrality policy virtually overnight. That’s Russia’s fault, not some NATO expansionism. They made Finland afraid, and Finland responded accordingly to protect itself. If Ukraine had done so earlier, it would never have been invaded.

Are you implying Finland is a democracy and it wasn’t it’s elites who decided “overnight” to stop being neutral? I’m not even touching the fact things like this don’t happen overnight. Also, are you unironically justifying NATO’s existence and implying it actually is a “defensive alliance”?

Don’t underestimate the West’s manufacturing abilities. In WW2, it may have been Soviet lives that defeated Germany in the eastern front, but it was US weaponry even before the US entered the war via the Lend-Lease Act.

Sure, US saved the poor agrarian USSR. It’s not like lend-lease’s was paling in comparison to Soviet industry’s output more and more by the month and ended up being negligeable around the middle of the war. It helped, but the only historians that think lend-lease decided anything ultimately are the “merika fuck yeah” ones. You are smelling of lib more with every word.

Russia will also have problems with these new soldiers. They’re generally untrained, and the officers needed to train them are mostly in the field fighting the war itself.

You know, reading about things you talk about first does wonders for not sounding like you don’t know what you’re talking about. It’s not mass-conscription, it’s mobilization of 300k people who already served. Besides, nothing says they won’t be stationed at the borders to replace standing units from somewhere in Siberia, which will be sent to Ukraine, we’ll have to see.

P.S. Me dumb. Lib sounds like a lib, duh doy. Thanks, comrade seanchai.

Are you implying Finland is a democracy and it wasn’t it’s elites who decided “overnight” to stop being neutral? I’m not even touching the fact things like this don’t happen overnight. Also, are you unironically justifying NATO’s existence and implying it actually is a “defensive alliance”?

You can see the results of public polls here. After Russia attacked Ukraine, people’s opinion changed almost overnight.

Finland is a democracy, and it was decided that no official public vote will not be held for joining NATO because of the possibility of hybrid operations. People agreed to this also. Only some pro-Russian politicans were against it.

The neutrality stopped when Russia demanded that Finland cannot join NATO in the end of 2021. Previously, no such demands were made.

I’m not going to add anything to the discussion about Russia and Ukraine, as I find such discussions online pointless. But I think maybe you misunderstand federation. You’re replying to a person registered to lemmy.ml, a catch-all leftist instance that’s largely about FOSS, but assuming you’re speaking to a communist.

Very many of the people on lemmy.ml are not communist. It’s the members of lemmygrad.ml that are generally Marxist. I think it might help you to keep that in mind so you don’t go into a conversation misunderstanding the political starting point of the person you’re speaking to.

What’s a FOSS?

Free, open source software

Ok thanks.

Oh right, I always forget about this beehaw weirdness. Thanks. Having a bit of an info-overload right now.

Edit: Also, I wouldn’t call these discussions pointless. Sure, they don’t change anyone’s opinions, but they contribute to background info-noise that has an effect on people. As someone on the recieving end of NATO info war, I can tell you - silence of one side just lets another propagandize and sow fear left and right.

Yeah for sure, I get that. I’m not arguing for other people to stop engaging in the talks, I just didn’t have anything to add to them and didn’t want you to be getting frustrated at someone’s stance on something because you expected them to be communist when they aren’t. Those kind of misunderstandings off the bat can make the conversation very unproductive, and escalate tensions in a way that might not happen otherwise.

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NXL
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weird you keep framing this as solely the west VS russia as if ukraine has zero say in any of this. The truth is a large majority of the population of Ukraine has volunteered to fight against russia to defend their home and country. Russia could stop the invasion today instead of forcing their men to die for Putin’s imperialist and genocidal dreams…

Weird that anybody still doesn’t understand that this is a proxy war between the west and Russia. Ukraine lost its sovereignty back in 2014 when its legitimate government was overthrown in a violent coup. Ukraine has also been in a civil war for the past eight years, but let’s just ignore basic facts of the situation I guess.

NXL
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The US is and the EU is helping fund Ukraine yes but you acting like Ukrainians are deciding to fight this to protect their country and family is ridiculous. It just seems like you’re desperate to paint Russia as doing something great because you somehow believe they are a Communist country so you want to defend Putin’s imperialistic endeavours.

Russia has been under fascist rule for a long time under Putin but you don’t want to accept that because “west bad”

What’s ridiculous is your lack of understanding of Ukraine. I highly recommend watching this lecture from 2015 to get a bit of background on the subject. Let’s take a look at a few slides from that presentation. First, here’s the demographic breakdown of Ukraine:

here’s how the election in 2004 went:

this is the 2010 election:

As you can clearly see from the voting patterns in both elections, the country is divided exactly across the current line of conflict. Furthermore, a survey conducted in 2015 further shows that there is a sharp division between people of eastern and western Ukraine on which economic bloc they would rather belong to:

You seem to think that Ukraine is some homogeneous blob as opposed to a large country with a complex ethnic situation. I’m also not sure where you got the notion that I think Russia is doing something great. It also hasn’t been a communist country for over 30 years now. That’s just pure nonsense. What I think is that Russia sees NATO expansion to its border is a threat, and it’s now reacting to this threat. Countless experts in the west warned that this would happen, and now it has happened.

Here’s what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:

https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/

50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:

George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.

Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"

Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.

You have no understanding of the actual situation in Ukraine, and you don’t want to accept the complex reality here because “Putin bad”.

NXL
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Good reply.

I still think its wrong to continue to look at this as the west vs russia since that ignores the fact that Ukrainians are defending themselves from an invasion that started because Russia wants to absorb countries while putting 100% of the blame on “NATO expansion”.

Look at Belarus and how they’re essentially under Putin’s rule now. Look at how Armenia is being invaded and Putin isn’t defending them even though it was agreed Russia would help them. Putin isn’t doing any of this to protect anyone.

Belarus had a coup attempt funded and organized by USA, Poland and Lithuania just a year ago. Again, it’s not Russia who gave them no choice, Lukashenko tried to sit on the fence for quarter of century, but finally they forced him to decide. And sure as hell he did not declared for people who want him dead and his country looted.

I still think its wrong to continue to look at this as the west vs russia

West has now turned itself into a conflict based economy. They cause conflicts around the globe to gain on trade front against their competitors. They overthrow governments and install puppet regimes to overtake the market and resources of countries. Its not a first for USA. And it wont be last as well.

Ukrainians are defending themselves from an invasion that started because Russia wants to absorb countries while putting 100% of the blame on “NATO expansion”.

It was west who lured Ukraine into joining NATO without any viable benefits to its countrymen except satisfying egos of its RW extremist factions currently ruling the country after 2014 coupe staged by west.

And before looking into Belarus, Armenia and all go look into Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Taliban, countries in south America and so never ending list of countries around the globe.

NXL
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Yes the US has been overthrowing democracies and installing fascists into power for decades https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

That doesn’t deny the fact that Putin invaded Ukraine and he shouldn’t have. Ukraine wouldn’t care about joining nato if they weren’t consistently under threat of Putin.

What does your last paragraph have to do with Russia not helping Armenia or taking control of Belarus? Is that just a whataboutism paragraph?

Yes the US has been overthrowing democracies and installing fascists into power for decades

Then you should also be acknowledging that they did the same with Ukraine too in 2014.

That doesn’t deny the fact that Putin invaded Ukraine and he shouldn’t have

He definitely won’t have if not provoked by Ukrainian fascist puppet regime by agreeing to join NATO and having a NATO base on Russian border endangering Russian sovereignty.

Ukraine wouldn’t care about joining NATO if they weren’t consistently under threat of Putin.

They didn’t agree to join till there was a legitimately elected Democratic govt pre 2014 and untill there was a regime change by west specifically for this purpose.

What does your last paragraph have to do with Russia not helping Armenia or taking control of Belarus? Is that just a whataboutism paragraph?

I wanted you to acknowledge how such conflicts benefit the west and how Ukraine is gonna pay for bringing, an unnecessarily provocative war with a neighboring country like Russia, to their land. West is really desperate to cause conflicts and go on a proxy war with Russia and China using using their neighboring countries.

The reality is that Ukraine has been in a civil war since the government there was overthrown by the west in 2014. Ukraine is not a homogeneous entity where all the people are united in one purpose. In fact, most of the fighting that’s been happening up to now was carried out by LPR and DPR militias with logistics, air, and artillery support by Russia.

Furthermore, it’s worth noting that Russia used exact same model that NATO used in Yugoslavia to justify the war. Russia recognized independent status of LPR and DPR the same way NATO recognized independence of Croatia and Bosnia. Then they were invited by these newly recognized states to assist in the war. It’s the same playbook, and NATO set the precedent here.

Speaking of Armenia, I recommend reading this RAND paper that suggests using a conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan to extend Russia.

NXL
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Interesting read thanks for sharing

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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In fact, most of the fighting that’s been happening up to now was carried out by LPR and DPR militias with logistics, air, and artillery support by Russia.

This sentence literally means it’s not a civil war but since the beginning it was a conflict that was armed and supported by Russia. The motives were to invade those regions of Ukraine and cause chaos before that, e.g. “see, Ukraine is not respecting the agreements” etc.

Civil war was happening for the past eight years while you were evidently sleeping. You can’t even argue that you’re uninformed about this conflict, because I’ve repeatedly linked for you what western experts have been saying about this for decades. You are just a straight up liar.

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Western experts also say it’s a mistake or a lie to call the past eight years civil war. Pure disinformation. Who is saying otherwise?

I linked world renowned experts like Mearsheimer and Chomsky who call this a civil war. Which experts claim otherwise exactly?

You also continue to claim Ukraine is a victim of a violent coup.

No, that’s not me claiming it, it’s people like Mearsheimer saying this.

Ukrainians wanted closer ties with EU, not Russia, but their government failed them

Now here’s an actual lie.

So, what would you say Russia is trying to do now? Invading regions, removing citizens, starting false elections and voting…

Russia is just following the NATO template used in Yugoslavia here. It’s a precedent your favorite terrorist organization set.

And they even said Ukraine shouldn’t exist and the goverment must be replaced. Smells like a violent coup, but that seems to be ok for you?

Russia has been perfectly fine with Ukraine doing its own thing until the 2014 coup, now that it’s been turned into a NATO puppet state they have a problem with it. Wonder why…

Russia has been perfectly fine with Ukraine doing its own thing until the 2014 coup, now that it’s been turned into a NATO puppet state they have a problem with it. Wonder why…

Well, this is one big lie. Russia certainly was not fine with Ukraine doing its own thing. From Wikipedia:

“In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) erupted in response to President Yanukovych’s sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. In February of that year, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU. Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it.”

“On 26 November 2013, the Ukrainian Government admitted that Russia had asked it to delay signing the EU association agreement and that it “wanted better terms for the EU deal”. “As soon as we reach a level that is comfortable for us, when it meets our interests, when we agree on normal terms, then we will be talking about signing,” President Yanukovych stated in a televised interview. The same day Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an end to the criticism of the Ukrainian decision to delay the association agreement, and that the EU deal was bad for Russia’s security interests.”

So did the US and NATO arrange this pressure from Russia too? Sounds like almost like a coup. And of course, you were lying.

Well, this is one big lie. Russia certainly was not fine with Ukraine doing its own thing. From Wikipedia:

Euromaidan are western sponsored color revolution my dude. This is precisely the event I’m referencing here. Hilarious how you expose yourself here trying to claim that I’m lying.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Well you just said that Russia was just fine before the “coup”? With that information it surely doesn’t sound like it. Instead they were trying to affect the government’s decisions and threatened Ukraine’s sovereignty.

The coup doesn’t happen overnight you understand that right? Coups take time to build, to install NGOs, groom extremists, take over politics, and so on. If you don’t even understand this, what else is there to tell you.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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So… you are talking the Russia’s coup here where they tried to affect country’s decisions through the president? Surely it has taken a long time to build. Ukraine got between at some point, and here we are now. Still you think west bad, east good.

Every country that wants closer ties with EU are under a secret coup?

If that’s the definition of a coup, then US did a coup on the whole of EU a long, long time ago. All EU politicians answer to US masters and do their bidding over the interests of their own people.

And, no only an utter simpleton would frame things in terms of two sides where one is bad and the other is good. This is a childish perspective that anybody past the age of 8 grows out of. Real world is complex and messy with all countries having their own interests.

Meanwhile, Euromaidan was a coup by every definition of a coup. It wasn’t a secret it’s a well documented thing that again, plenty of experts I’ve linked repeatedly discuss at length. The fact that you continue trying to pretend it wasn’t a coup shows how desperate you are to ignore reality and live in a black and white world that your simple mind can comprehend.

Oh my buddha 🤣 All this from a guy who thinks NATO is always bad and Russia good. Doesn’t sound like you have understood yourself what you are saying.

All this from a guy who recognizes that the crimes NATO is responsible for eclipse anything Russia has done. Another basic fact you refuse to accept.

😂 I think we are done here. I’ll gladly accept your ignorance and lack of skill to detect propaganda.

Yeah, we’re done here because Russia hasn’t massacred over 6 million people in a war on terror last I checked. I’ll gladly accept your ignorance and lack of skill to detect propaganda. 😂

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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6d

removed by mod

whatever helps you sleep at night I suppose

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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deleted by creator

Thought you were gonna stop spewing nonsense at me?

It is a civil war, and you are the one spreading misinformation here. This is a well documented fact that has volumes of references. I love how you take issue with Russia being part of the conflict while conveniently ignoring the fact that the west is also part of the same conflict.

“Overthrown in a violet coup” is also a broken record.

Because that’s a documented fact that is acknowledged by plenty western experts. The color revolution was sponsored by the west and it constitutes a coup. Don’t know what those quotes are doing there.

It’s strange that these same broken records must be spammed to all threads. Shouting bullshit louder doesn’t make it a fact.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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You could lead by example.

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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5d

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this is a kindergarten level of argument

@varjolintu@lemmy.ml
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Says the guy who consistently ignores basic facts and tried to argue that NATO is the lesser evil with a straight face. A guy who failed to pass kindergarten is the one who still doesn’t realize he’s gonna be freezing this winter.

I can say the same with any kind of face. You on the other hand have lost yours.

I don’t care on iota what a lying ideologue thinks about my face to be honest.

stop pointing fingers and join the forces. Put your wallet where your mouth is

Calm down. Take care of yourself.

No need to get nasty.

are you ok?

what

Inkie
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Fucking hell.

They gonna drag us into nukular war.

It sounds like these troops are going to run into preparedness and equipment issues, just like the initial invasion force. I’m sorry to see more Russian lives thrown into the meat grinder for this.

As the article notes, Russia and their puppets in the separatist regions have moved forward with annexation. Combined with Putin’s speech claiming that Russia would use any means available to defend its territory, that hints he may use nukes if Ukraine is on the verge of retaking the territory that Russia has annexed. Saber rattling maybe, but no one really wants to find out.

olbaidiablo
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I have a strange feeling that the nuclear weapons he thinks he has (and have to be replaced every few year and probably haven’t) are going to be as effective as that brand new highly advanced super tank that he has but hasn’t bothered to deploy at all.

пиздец

Тоже в списке запасников?

@vitaminka@lemmy.ml
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вроде да

в военном билете написано, что частично годен, те пока что из указа точно не понятно подлежу ли я призыву или нет 🤷‍♀️

а ты?

В запасе. В приказе эта прекрасная формулировка про “востребованность специальности”. Я вот не знаю - востребованная у меня специальность или нет.

понятно, ну держись там :/

Ты тоже

I only half understood that (AI translation can be interesting), but good luck to you both.

the mobilisation decree is super vague, so we were discussing whether we’ll be conscripted, which is based on your eligibility for service (you can be fully eligible, partially eligible and completely ineligible), which is in turn based on your health and/or various other circumstances

Thanks for the better-than-machine translation.

@cult@lemmy.ml
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113d

I’m so sorry this is happening to y’all :'(

@nachtigall@feddit.de
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Seems like their “military special operation” is not going as expected. That’s pretty much an admission they expect a loss in the war if not stocking up the forces.

The front line is quite large, so there is no enough manpower to streighten it. Recent Ukrainian successful counter-offence demostrated softness of the frontline, so doulbling manpower on the front seems work on mistakes.

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